Temple Menorah Stamp Affirms Jewish Claim to Land

[Guest shiloh357]

1. When talking about Palestine from 1891 forwards and its current demographics, they do not make the distinction that the land mass included an extra two thirds, namely what is now Jordan

so in arriving at a figure for those times in what was called Palestine should take this into consideration, and unless I have missed it then it doesn't.

2. The second important fact that appears to be missing is the way in which the Jews were restricted from entering Palestine both during the Ottoman and Mandate periods whereas

the Arabs were under no such restrictions.

Those are two excellent points botz. It often gets overlooked that "Palestine" today and Palestine 100 years ago are not the same thing, and simply rattling off statistics without taking into account other realities and issues that were in play tends to distort one's view. That and the fact that Jews were largely not permitted to live in the region is something that doesnn't get brought out enough. During the Mandate period, Britan took a 180 degree turn from favoring a Jewish state to opposing it and this mainly came about because of England's oil interests. England would not allow over 1 and a half million Jews passagse to Palestine in order to escape from nazi holocaust and caused millions of Jews to remain in Europe and face Hitler's camps/ovens.

[Guest shiloh357]

On another note the your comparison between the Nazis and thePalestinians is absurd and trivialises the reality of the holocaust. However, it can be noted that nobody denies the German state the right to exist, presumably because Germans are Europeans.

The Palestinians aligned themselves with Hitler and the nazis. They adopted nazi tactics. Mein Kampf was/is a best seller among the Palestinians. They deserve to be compared to the Nazis as they approved of and adopted nazi views towards Jews.

[amor]

On another note the your comparison between the Nazis and thePalestinians is absurd and trivialises the reality of the holocaust. However, it can be noted that nobody denies the German state the right to exist, presumably because Germans are Europeans.

The Palestinians aligned themselves with Hitler and the nazis. They adopted nazi tactics. Mein Kampf was/is a best seller among the Palestinians. They deserve to be compared to the Nazis as they approved of and adopted nazi views towards Jews.

Really!!!!!! every single one! The political group involved in the Lebanese conflict wirth the strongest links to the Nazis were the aforementioned Lebanese Forces Militia, the gangsters the Israelis allowed into Sabra and Shatilla as was admitted by their founder

I was the captain of the Lebanese football team and the president of the Lebanese Football federation. We went to the Olympic Games of 1936 in Berlin. And I saw then this discipline and order. And I said to myself: "Why can't we do the same thing in Lebanon?" So when we came back to Lebanon, we created this youth movement. When I was in Berlin then, Nazism did not have the reputation which it has now. Nazism? In every system in the world, you can find something good. But Nazism was not Nazism at all. The word came afterwards. In their system, I saw discipline. And we in the Middle East, we need discipline more than anything else.[7]

From here

[amor]

Palestinians Botz, who are so called because they come from Palestine, are actually normal people, no different from you or me. I find your desire to portray them as in some way different sub-human, perhaps, distasteful.

Yes in Lebanon were Palestinian refugees make up 10% of the population and have very limited rights, Palestinians were involved in the factional bloodshed of the civil war as were many other groups both Lebanese and foreign - remember the involvement of both the Israelis and Syrians in this conflict. As far as brutality goes well you give a quote from a Lebanese warlord himself very involved in shedding the blood of others. It's alo woth remembering the attacks on the Palestinian campsduring the conflicts. Do you remember, for example, the massacre at th Sabra and Shattila

Down a laneway to our right, no more than 50 yards from the entrance, there lay a pile of corpses. There were more than a dozen of them, young men whose arms and legs had been wrapped around each other in the agony of death. All had been shot point-blank range through the cheek, the bullet tearing away a line of flesh up to the ear and entering the brain. Some had vivid crimson or black scars down the left side of their throats. One had been castrated, his trousers torn open and a settlement of flies throbbing over his torn intestines.

The eyes of these young men were all open. The youngest was only 12 or 13 years old. They were dressed in jeans and coloured shirts, the material absurdly tight over their flesh now that their bodies had begun to bloat in the heat. They had not been robbed. On one blackened wrist a Swiss watch recorded the correct time, the second hand still ticking round uselessly, expending the last energies of its dead owner.

On the other side of the main road, up a track through the debris, we found the bodies of five women and several children. The women were middle-aged and their corpses lay draped over a pile of rubble. One lay on her back, her dress torn open and the head of a little girl emerging from behind her. The girl had short dark curly hair, her eyes were staring at us and there was a frown on her face. She was dead.

Another child lay on the roadway like a discarded doll, her white dress stained with mud and dust. She could have been no more than three years old. The back of her head had been blown away by a bullet fired into her brain. One of the women also held a tiny baby to her body. The bullet that had passed into her breast had killed the baby too. Someone had slit open the woman's stomach, cutting sideways and then upwards, perhaps trying to kill her unborn child. Her eyes were wide open, her dark face frozen in horror.

From here

A massacre commited by the Israeli directed Gemaylist Lebanese Christian militias. An Israeli inquiry, theKahanecommision, found that The Israeli leadership at the time bore considerable responsiblity for this massacre.

In the conflicts in the region few of those with power really has clean hands, but that gives no justification for wholescale vilification for any group or community.

It's easy but shameful, simplistic and profoundly unChristian to pick on the victims of a tragedy and seek to blame them for their misfortune. i reitterate the Palestinians are as evil or as good as the Israelis or the people of Sussex. you and I are no better than they are; they are no better than us.

The Sabra/Shatilla massacre that is so often used to smear Israel occurred in the context of a war that was started by the Palestinians in Lebanon who were shelling northern Israseli cities. Bad decisions are made in war. Israel is not perfect, but the errors that were made would not have have been made in the first place, had Israel not been forced to respond to attacks from the terrorists over the border in Lebanon.

They weren't being shelled from refugee camps in Beirut miles frim the border. This was a war crime - the bloody slaughter of hundreds of civillians. It should have been avoided it could have been stopped. That by the way is not just my conclusion, but that of an Israeli government inquiry

[Guest shiloh357]

Palestinians Botz, who are so called because they come from Palestine, are actually normal people, no different from you or me. I find your desire to portray them as in some way different sub-human, perhaps, distasteful.

Yes in Lebanon were Palestinian refugees make up 10% of the population and have very limited rights, Palestinians were involved in the factional bloodshed of the civil war as were many other groups both Lebanese and foreign - remember the involvement of both the Israelis and Syrians in this conflict. As far as brutality goes well you give a quote from a Lebanese warlord himself very involved in shedding the blood of others. It's alo woth remembering the attacks on the Palestinian campsduring the conflicts. Do you remember, for example, the massacre at th Sabra and Shattila

Down a laneway to our right, no more than 50 yards from the entrance, there lay a pile of corpses. There were more than a dozen of them, young men whose arms and legs had been wrapped around each other in the agony of death. All had been shot point-blank range through the cheek, the bullet tearing away a line of flesh up to the ear and entering the brain. Some had vivid crimson or black scars down the left side of their throats. One had been castrated, his trousers torn open and a settlement of flies throbbing over his torn intestines.

The eyes of these young men were all open. The youngest was only 12 or 13 years old. They were dressed in jeans and coloured shirts, the material absurdly tight over their flesh now that their bodies had begun to bloat in the heat. They had not been robbed. On one blackened wrist a Swiss watch recorded the correct time, the second hand still ticking round uselessly, expending the last energies of its dead owner.

On the other side of the main road, up a track through the debris, we found the bodies of five women and several children. The women were middle-aged and their corpses lay draped over a pile of rubble. One lay on her back, her dress torn open and the head of a little girl emerging from behind her. The girl had short dark curly hair, her eyes were staring at us and there was a frown on her face. She was dead.

Another child lay on the roadway like a discarded doll, her white dress stained with mud and dust. She could have been no more than three years old. The back of her head had been blown away by a bullet fired into her brain. One of the women also held a tiny baby to her body. The bullet that had passed into her breast had killed the baby too. Someone had slit open the woman's stomach, cutting sideways and then upwards, perhaps trying to kill her unborn child. Her eyes were wide open, her dark face frozen in horror.

From here

A massacre commited by the Israeli directed Gemaylist Lebanese Christian militias. An Israeli inquiry, theKahanecommision, found that The Israeli leadership at the time bore considerable responsiblity for this massacre.

In the conflicts in the region few of those with power really has clean hands, but that gives no justification for wholescale vilification for any group or community.

It's easy but shameful, simplistic and profoundly unChristian to pick on the victims of a tragedy and seek to blame them for their misfortune. i reitterate the Palestinians are as evil or as good as the Israelis or the people of Sussex. you and I are no better than they are; they are no better than us.

The Sabra/Shatilla massacre that is so often used to smear Israel occurred in the context of a war that was started by the Palestinians in Lebanon who were shelling northern Israseli cities. Bad decisions are made in war. Israel is not perfect, but the errors that were made would not have have been made in the first place, had Israel not been forced to respond to attacks from the terrorists over the border in Lebanon.

They weren't being shelled from refugee camps in Beirut miles frim the border. This was a war crime - the bloody slaughter of hundreds of civillians. It should have been avoided it could have been stopped. That by the way is not just my conclusion, but that of an Israeli government inquiry

I didn't say they were being shelled from Sabra and Shatilla (sigh) I said that the incident occurred in the context of Palestinian agression against Israel. Sabra and Shatilla might never have happened if the Palestinians had decided to call down the thunder and shell Israelis from over in Lebanon.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 21 February 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Quote

On another note the your comparison between the Nazis and thePalestinians is absurd and trivialises the reality of the holocaust. However, it can be noted that nobody denies the German state the right to exist, presumably because Germans are Europeans.

The Palestinians aligned themselves with Hitler and the nazis. They adopted nazi tactics. Mein Kampf was/is a best seller among the Palestinians. They deserve to be compared to the Nazis as they approved of and adopted nazi views towards Jews.

Really!!!!!! every single one!

I didn't say every single one, but the fact is that the Palestinians IN Palestine generaly supported the actions of Hitler and Mein Kampf WAS and probably still is a best seller. Palstinian children a raised to see Jews as desceded from apes and pigs, which was a big part of Nazi propaganda as well, which the Palestinians took from the Nazis. So yeah, generally speaking, even today, Palestinians have a very nazi/hitlerisitic view of Jews, so it is not unreasonable to compare them with Hitler.

I mean the libreal media and the Europeans have no problem trying to equate the Israelis with the nazis even though no such comparison can actualy be found. Yet people like you get your wig in a wad when the REAL historical connnections between the Palestinians and the nazis are pointed out.

[amor]

[nebula]

I didn't say they were being shelled from Sabra and Shatilla (sigh) I said that the incident occurred in the context of Palestinian agression against Israel. Sabra and Shatilla might never have happened if the Palestinians had decided to call down the thunder and shell Israelis from over in Lebanon.

We are taiking about a pogrom that went on for three days. Do you think it was acceptable for Sharon and co to do nothing to prevent the rape and murder of hundreds perhaps thousands of innocent civillians. or do you consider them not to be innocent?

Do you think it was acceptable for the Palestinians to have shelled Israelis from over in Lebanon?

[amor]

shiloh357, on 21 February 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Quote

On another note the your comparison between the Nazis and thePalestinians is absurd and trivialises the reality of the holocaust. However, it can be noted that nobody denies the German state the right to exist, presumably because Germans are Europeans.

The Palestinians aligned themselves with Hitler and the nazis. They adopted nazi tactics. Mein Kampf was/is a best seller among the Palestinians. They deserve to be compared to the Nazis as they approved of and adopted nazi views towards Jews.

Really!!!!!! every single one!

I didn't say every single one, but the fact is that the Palestinians IN Palestine generaly supported the actions of Hitler and Mein Kampf WAS and probably still is a best seller. Palstinian children a raised to see Jews as desceded from apes and pigs, which was a big part of Nazi propaganda as well, which the Palestinians took from the Nazis. So yeah, generally speaking, even today, Palestinians have a very nazi/hitlerisitic view of Jews, so it is not unreasonable to compare them with Hitler.

Actually I don't think it's acceptable to demonise whole groups of people. Given the the history of the last 60 years and the continuing unresolved political problemsit is understandable that Israelis and Palestiniansin general dislike each other, and are willing to believe the worst of the other side. That doesn't justify posting bestialising generalisations here. As to the historical links well during the 1940's there were contacts between the Muftiof Jerusalem and Nazi Germany; there werealso attempts byLehi (one of whose members Yidzak Shamir went on to become Israeli president) to forge links with the Germans. In both cases because they saw the british Empire as a common enemy. Similar things happened in other British colonies and territories including India and South Africa.

Palestinians and Isaelis have to be treated as normal people, with normal aspirations and grievances.

[amor]

Botz, for the sake of clarity, can you give a source for your statistics on rape and murder?

Sure....you will find these things in 'The Rape of Lebanon' by Peter Grace, pub 1983 by the Beirut Evangelical Press pages 76-77

also cited by Frank Gervasi in Keretsky 'Come let us reason together' page 242.

Both the above are cited in 'Philistine the Great Deception' by Ramon Bennett, pub by Shekinah books also pgs 76-77.

I have not attempted to clarify the way they tortured and murdered countless individuals as it is too graphically horrifying

to print...but if you look hard you will get a flavour of their inventive use of chain-saws, how cars are used to drag people

to death and what happens to whole families of any that cross them....

Nothing on line then. Since I don't have access to your source I can't comment directly. As to theinhuman violence more easily available books on the conflict for example Thomas Friedman's Beirut to Jerusalem or Robert Fisk's Pity the Nation will give plenty of examples, but also make it clear that this came from all sides. There were few clen hands amongst those active in the civil war.