Oppressed Christians

[Az_]

I am curious about the perception of oppression expressed by Christians. I am an atheist. I believe atheists to be oppressed. So it is sometimes a bit suprising to me when those I percieve as oppressing my compatriots to claim they are being oppressed. Now I by no means discard the claims of oppression but I would like to hear what you believe is the oppression you are experiencing. So please share what you have.

[Botz]

Az...

I am curious about the perception of oppression expressed by Christians. I am an atheist. I believe atheists to be oppressed. So it is sometimes a bit suprising to me when those I percieve as oppressing my compatriots to claim they are being oppressed. Now I by no means discard the claims of oppression but I would like to hear what you believe is the oppression you are experiencing. So please share what you have.

Hi Az good to meet you.

I find you are not really talking in specifics so it is rather difficult to give any sort of informed opinion/argument.

Christians in many countries are continually being oppressed,persecuted,discriminated against,imprisoned,tortured and killed...simply because they believe in Jesus Christ and share their faith.

Mostly in the West we do not really have oppression of this magnitude but it can come in other more insidious forms that can be pretty tough on people...especially kids in school. There is usually opposition against anything done to promote the Good News that we have a Saviour who can forgive our sins and give us eternal life if only we will repent...man has a natural inclination to try and do things his way and dismiss G-d out of hand.

I have never heard of Atheists being oppressed as a religious group...what examples have you got to offer? Personally I always find the word 'Atheist' a misnomer...and do not believe anybody can realistically claim G-d in non-existant..in biblical terms it would be judged a 'foolish position to hold'...I think the only viable description for a person to hold is that of 'Agnostic' as they are those who unsure if G-d is really there...and it is an honest confession.

[seraph]

"He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." --Matthew 5:45b

Bad things do happen to both the redeemed and the lost just as good things do. We allowed evil into this world by sinning... that is our fault... but God brings good into this world.

Az, were you talking of oppression against Christians as a group or against individual Christians?

You might find this interesting... I was speaking to a pastor in a communist country (Christianity is restricted there). He had said communism was the best thing for Christianity in that country. Why? The oppression made their faith stronger. Nonbelievers would see their strength in the Lord and they too would come to faith in Christ, so Christianity had begun to spread more rapidly under communist persecution (the persecution varies including harassment, severe fines, arrest, torture, murder). This pastor was arrested again about a week after this meeting.

Also in this same country I went to a leper's village (the government also puts AIDS patients, drug addicts and orphans in the leper's village hoping they will all die and not have to be bothered with them anymore). The people in the village do not leave... tombstones are all around their one-room shacks they live in. Christian churches are normally censored, but since the officials are afraid to catch a disease if they entered, they pretty much leave them alone. So... instead of having each censorship, the pastor is free to teach right from the bible... the village was Christian. Even in their oppression they could see their blessings and feel God's love. One of the lepers told me, "Even though we are lepers, God saved us. He gave us a new life."

Oppression happens, but God is always with us and He will not give us more than we can handle... His grace is sufficient to get us through. Affliction can help strengthen our faith, develop patience in us, prove our faith is genuine. And it is temporary. Jesus Himself suffered in this life... why should we expect to be spared? There are no perfect lives. It is not to be assumed that when affliction comes it is punishment for some sin (although we can have consequences to live with and discipline). Trouble can happen for choices we make or choices others make... or they happen for reasons beyond what we can see. I am personally suffering a lot of affliction right now, but God is worthy of praise in ALL things.

[Az_]

I find you are not really talking in specifics so it is rather difficult to give any sort of informed opinion/argument.

I speak generally because I am unaware of any specific examples of oppression. I merely hear from various sources that Christians are oppressed here in the US. Thus my question. Mere curiousity.

Christians in many countries are continually being oppressed,persecuted,discriminated against,imprisoned,tortured and killed...simply because they believe in Jesus Christ and share their faith.

This is not suprising. Culture is identity. When you go to another culture and attempt to override their culture with yours it is expected that there will be resistance. Some less civil than others. But again this is not the oprression I am asking about. Any belief system will be oppressed in the presense of another dominant belief system.

Mostly in the West we do not really have oppression of this magnitude but it can come in other more insidious forms that can be pretty tough on people...especially kids in school. There is usually opposition against anything done to promote the Good News that we have a Saviour who can forgive our sins and give us eternal life if only we will repent...man has a natural inclination to try and do things his way and dismiss G-d out of hand.

This is more along the line of what I am asking about. Though this gets to an interesting point. I know of no law or rule that prevents children from praying on their own in school. There are certainly laws preventing officials initiating religious practices but that is because our is a diverse culture and in an official capacity we cannot favor one religion over another. Anyone suggesting a kid cannot pray on their own though certainly misunderstands the nature of the seperation clause.

As to promoting the good news. Be sure to examine the matter from the other perspective. What you seem to be claiming is that attempting to press your beliefs on others (ie oppressing their beliefs) should be a right. I fully understand that you believe this to be part of your belief set. But it is effectively attempting to assail anothers beliefs. This is not so much a case of Christians being oppressed as it is a case of not allowing them to oppress others. Or at least that seems to be my perspective.

I have never heard of Atheists being oppressed as a religious group...what examples have you got to offer?

Name an elected atheist official. There are no openly atheist individuals serving in any higher ranking elected capacities in the US Government. Recent polls show that all things being equal a person being an atheist will render them unelectable with over 51% voting against them on just that alone. Gays are more electable than atheists. This is not whining. This is simply recognition that the majority of the population distrusts atheists. I would suggest this lack of trust is unwarranted.

A simple example of public displays of oppression. George H W Bush (Poppy) is imfamous (in atheist circles) for having said that he did not believe that atheists deserved to be citizens or patriots of the US. Star Jones (the View) said in an interview that she wouldn't trust an atheist for anything. If she had made this comment about any other group the uproar would have been deafening. But because she targetted atheists her comments passed by unscathed. There are ample other examples.

Allow me to present some examples of personal experiencs. I have bumperstickers on my car. None are inflamatory or insulting. They merely present my position as an atheist. To date my car has experienced the following:

Keyed on 3 occaisions

A WWJD bracelet wrapped around my windshield wiper

3 sets of stickers stolen

1 set of stickers moved to the side of the car (perhaps the vandal remembered the thou shall not steal thingy)

Flipped off on numerous occaisions

Countless pamphlets left on my car

On one occaision someone dumped 10 bibles on my car (NT only)

I have a friend that simply had one Darwin Fish on his car and he was chased off the road by someone in a pickup truck with Calvin Praying stickers on the back of theirs. Threats were made.

I have been followed into parking lots and evangelyzed

I have been exorcised (both in real life and online{which in and of itself is humorous})

I feel safe is saying that there exists a palpable level of oppression directed against atheists in this society. Of course not all of it is meant in a malicious content. But the level of ignorance regarding atheists creates a dangerous situation where zealots will often feel justified in acting against us as they percieve us a evil.

Personally I always find the word 'Atheist' a misnomer...and do not believe anybody can realistically claim G-d in non-existant..in biblical terms it would be judged a 'foolish position to hold'...I think the only viable description for a person to hold is that of 'Agnostic' as they are those who unsure if G-d is really there...and it is an honest confession.

The misnomer here is the strawman built regarding the word atheism. The word atheism specifically means someone that is without a belief in god. Lets look at the word.

Theist. Someone that believes in a god or gods. The prefix 'a' means without. So an atheist in its simplest definition is someone that is without a belief in god or gods.

Atheist tend to come from the sketpical evidentiary process. Though they can also be found in religious/philosophical groups such as Buddhists or Taoists. The ones from the skeptical evidentiary path are not likely to proclaim there are no gods. This is not logical. You cannot prove a negative. Thus you cannot prove there are no gods. This does not mean the theists win however. The proper order of events are that the positive claimant needs to provide their case and evidence for it. Then the skeptics attempt to refute or disprove their attempted proof.

See thats the thing. You cannot start an intellectual exploration by disproving a thing. There has to be an attempt at proving a thing in order to attempt to disprove it. Thus whatever the positive claim is has to initiate the process. To ask an atheist to disprove the existance of god without providing a claim for god allows the atheist to disprove any old claim of god they want.

There are of course plenty of atheists that do not fully understand the nuances of logic and thus make grandeous claims that there are no gods. This would be a statement of faith and unlikely to be what they really mean. An atheist properly would be someone that proclaims they see no evidence for the existance of god and have no belief in god or gods.

The word agnostic is another poorly understood word. Where atheism and theism are tuned to what a person believes the word agnostic is paired with the word gnostic. These two words define what a person knows. Knowing a thing and believing a thing are two wildly different things. You can believe a thing and be wrong. Knowing a thing is much more difficult.

We can know abstract constructs like 2+2=4. We know this is true because we define it as true. But knowing things about what goes on outside our head becomes increasingly problematic. We may believe we know what is going on out there but that is supposition. The philosophy of Solipsism examines this conundrum. How do we know we are not just brains in a vat being fed the sensory information that appears before us. The movie Matrix played with this idea and served as a Solipsism 101 course for most sophists.

Knowing a thing becomes demonstrably difficult. For the atheist knowing in the absolute sense becomes nearly unattainable. To be a gnostic atheist you would have to have absolute knowledge of all existance. Thus we are relegated the agnostic atheist position. Someone proclaiming to know there are no gods probably doesn't understand logic very well.

The notion of a gnostic theist is possible but tricky. A person can believe they have experienced god directly and thus claim to know god exists but they have no means of determining whether they have experienced a delusion of some sort. This is the brain in a vat problem again. We cannot know if what we are experiencing is real or more importantly if our interpretation of them is correct.

Knowing and believing are two diffent things. They are often confused with one another but it is important to keep a firm understand of which is which.

[Az_]

You might find this interesting... I was speaking to a pastor in a communist country (Christianity is restricted there). He had said communism was the best thing for Christianity in that country.

Oh I am fully aware of oppression of Chrisitans and other beliefs in other nations. I have no love for communism either. Its means of operating are oppressive by nature and any opposing social system will be stamped on by it. A very detrimental tacitc IMO.

For the record just because Communism is atheistic does not mean that atheists are communists. You will find that most atheists despise communism. I have no use for it myself.

As mentioned in my above post my question is more in regard to the US. Are Chrisitians oppressed in America?

[Willow]

Are Christians oppressed in America?

Being from Canada I hope you don't mind me answering!

Christians are persecuted. It does look at times completely different then countries like the one Seraph referenced to. Here, we are considered intellectual. We have everything (relatively speaking) material wise, every comfort, luxury, and it seems that our basic dependence in God is jeopardized because we can go out and buy or somehow obtain everything we need at a drive in, convenience everything store. Our society has found no dependence on God.

I know I know - you need to believe in God to depend on him. But think about these 3rd world countries. Many parts of these countries literally have NOTHING. Where would you look in such a case? Turning to something higher than yourself to make it through each and everyday would make sense. It means there is still a hope. A reason to get up in the morning and get through your miserable life. And that is exactly what Jesus taught us - that there is hope. Look thru the book of Job. In one swoop everything material was taken away from him, even his kids. He had nothing - even his health was taken away. Yet, he had hope that the God of the universe was still there, and was still worth praising and had a plan or reason for the current situation he was in. He trusted him.

Like I said - our society has made it that we depend on nothing or nobody.

The persecution comes from people being offended that we tell them there is only one way to see their eternity. And that with that, comes things here on earth we should not tolerate.

Here is an example. A University here in Canada is privately funded. It is well know as a Christian University, which is one of the leaders in Teaching, Humanities, Theology, Science, Music...... and when you register - you sign an agreement. In essence, this agreement is a Holiness agreement. Things like not having premarital sex, and others which include no drugs etc. There was a huge uproar about the no pre-mar sex policy. Groups fought and even took this to the highest Supreme Court in Canada because they said they were being discriminatory. Well......they are privately funded. Even in the name implies where they are going with their beliefs... when you go - you know what you are signing up for. There is nothing hidden. So why all the outrage? Go to another school! We do have quite a few! There were scores and scores of people petitioning and arguing against this school. Not quite on par with being arrested and tortured for your faith - but here that is pretty big.

We get flipped off, yelled at, spit at, beaten up, shot at, abused, graffitied on personal property, etc.

But I can say that sometimes, yes, some believers have provoked it. We need to know how to reach out in love to people - even in the face of adversity and trial, not attack and lash out. How can anyone tell the difference that Christ as we say lives in us if we don't demonstrate the supposed effects of having him live in us.

When I was in elementary school, we read the bible every morning. The kids were asked to stand up and read. And I went to a public school! By the time grade 7 rolled around, the teachers were given the choice to read or no - but the trend had started. 2 years later no bible reading. Soon after the Lord's prayer was taken out. Slowly, very slowly, God is being removed from the fabric of society. All in the name of religious tolerance.

Tolerance for everything else - but Christianity. The only religion that says there is ONE way to Christ and ONE way to be forgiven. In this world they say there are no absolutes. Since Believer's say there is an absolute (regarding your soul) we are discriminated against.

There is an oxymoron - I can tolerate anything except intolerance.

Oppression - having excessive or unfair burdens imposed

burdened psychologically or mentally, laden with grief

Not sure if I expressed myself well there......maybe more thoughts later....

Wills

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings AZ,

As mentioned in my above post my question is more in regard to the US. Are Chrisitians oppressed in America?

I would say Christians in the U.S. actually have it pretty easy compared with other countries, however, that said, here are various "persecutions/trials" a Christian is undergoing right here in the good old U.S. of A:

We believe this nation to be founded upon the Godly principles of the Bible and as such we expect those basic principles to guide everyone's individual lives. Sure there are exceptions where people won't, but the "basic" principles are there for everyone's benefit, not Christian's alone. Our "liberal Supreme Court" has overturned so many of our hard won laws that we feel stifled and often not free to worship as we should.

Examples are:

Our children should be able to go to school and learn the Bible as well as other curricula.

Our children NOR us adults should be inundated day in and day out with all sorts of sexuality and lust. This is the NORM today, no matter what the media or where we go.

We should never have to see two "gay" men or two women kissing on television or anywhere else. In fact they have usurped the use of a very good word meaning "happy" to their own ends. We used to call them QUEERS, and they still are. MEANING - ODDBALL, UNUSUAL, NOT IN THE NORM, FREAKS. Get the gist?

We can't preach any politics from the pulpit and maintain tax exempt status.

We cannot display the 10 commandments in any public building. I find it amazing that we are still allowed to open the Senate with prayer each day.

Our kids can't pray in school OR evangelize UNLESS it is done in SECRET. Yet QUEERS are able to boast their EVIL lifestyle in front of all of us.

The Bible makes it plain that "If a man sheds blood, so shall man shed his blood." The Government has NOT been given the sword in vain, and we spend countless dollars on protracted legal stuff before a man can be sentenced to death. There should be a "speedy" trial for everyone. It is very unfortunate that "some" innocents have died, but with DNA testing and big brother on every corner, the possibility of this happening should diminish to nothing.

Why must I tolerate a WHORE HOUSE or a PORNO shop just a short distance from my home?

Why can't I spank my kids when they need it, instead of having the cops called to have me arrested?

Why aren't parents notified in all cases regarding their children. i.e. a young girl gets pregnant, goes to her school counselor who refers her to an abortion clinic WITHOUT the parents consent. This happens every day.

Well, I'm sure many could add much more to this list, but that should be it for now.

As an Atheist, do you have a "foundation of moral values" that you stand upon, or do you just "go with the flow"?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[seraph]

*snip*

As mentioned in my above post my question is more in regard to the US.  Are Chrisitians oppressed in America?

There is oppression here in the US, but of course not as severe as in countries where Christians are martyred... yet anyway. Although some are killed for being a Christian, like Cassie Bernal, that is obviously not the norm. Our oppression most often tends to be mocking or harassment. Discrimination against Christians is certainly increasing here... such as when they are called "intolerant" and "hateful" for not supporting gay marriages.... a boss specifically making a Christian employee work on Sunday when they have requested that day off to attend church even when it would not have created some undue hardship on the employer. Christians are oppressed in the US when they are not allowed to pray in certain locations or are harassed when expressing their belief (our students were not allowed to have a Bible study after school on grounds and our Christian hardrock band was denied to play at a battle-of-the-bands when all others were allowed). Of course Christians who are oppressed by Communist or Islamic Nations may have severe persecution... so if by comparison you choose to call what Christians deal with here in the states as discrimination, fine.

dis

[Willow]

dis

[Az_]

Reading through Dad Earnie's response.

We believe this nation to be founded upon the Godly principles of the Bible and as such we expect those basic principles to guide everyone's individual lives. Sure there are exceptions where people won't, but the "basic" principles are there for everyone's benefit, not Christian's alone. Our "liberal Supreme Court" has overturned so many of our hard won laws that we feel stifled and often not free to worship as we should.

America is a free society. In order to maintain a free society you have to have a government free of bias. This seems to be the reason that the founding fathers put as the first mention in the first ammendment the notion that the government should not pass any laws regulating the free peoples religion. This is of course the infamous seperation clause.

The government can't get involved in what we believe. Seems pretty safe to me. It allows We The People to explore the world as we freely choose to. You are free to practice your religion as you see fit (as long as you don't hurt anyone else). And I can practice mine the way I see fit. That is freedom in a nutshell.

In reading your list of issues where you believe you are being oppressed it strikes me that what you see as oppression is restrictions on you to press your beliefs on others.

We should never have to see two "gay" men or two women kissing on television or anywhere else. In fact they have usurped the use of a very good word meaning "happy" to their own ends. We used to call them QUEERS, and they still are. MEANING - ODDBALL, UNUSUAL, NOT IN THE NORM, FREAKS. Get the gist?

I don't want to start an argument about whether homosexuality is natural or not but think this through. You are not being oppressed when you watch other people express affection to one another. You are responsible for your own emotional response to other's actions. If it offends you look away. This isn't Clockwork Orange and you are definately not Alex.

That is the nature of a free society. Sometimes others are going to do things that you don't like. Perhaps it is free societies that are the problem for some.

We cannot display the 10 commandments in any public building. I find it amazing that we are still allowed to open the Senate with prayer each day.

Again its the idea that the government shouldn't really be in the business of telling us what to believe. Individual law makers may draw from their religious background to inform them of what laws to make. But if they want to pass constitutional muster they best leave the rhetoric out of it.

This certainly does not seem to be oppression. It is again not allowing Christians to use the government to press their beliefs on the rest of the population. The government is not there to tell people what to believe. Its really only there to enforce how we get along with each other. ie What we can and cannot do to each other.

Freedom does not mean you get to tell others what to do. You are not being oppressed by not being allowed to tell me what to do. We can talk about it. We can argue about it. But your freedom is my freedom. Thats kinda what liberty and justice for all means.

Our kids can't pray in school OR evangelize UNLESS it is done in SECRET. Yet QUEERS are able to boast their EVIL lifestyle in front of all of us.

Where does this notion that kids can't pray in school come from? Kids have been praying in school ever since the first test was announced and they will be praying till the earth is engulfed by the sun. It is school sponsored prayer that is not allowed. If you'r child wants to pray that is their own business. And if I recall correctly Jesus had something to say about those that pray out in the public for others to see. Perhaps prayer should be something between the individual and god in private.

As to evangelyzing. Kids are allowed to talk to kids. What they talk about is their own business. Just don't get the government officially involved with the matter. They can't take sides.

Its also not quite so one sided as you seem to suggest. Let me give an example. There was a school here in Michigan recently that had a bible study class after school. It wasn't sponsored by the school. They just made rooms available for kids to do whatever they wanted (clubs, study groups, etc). All was fine and dandy until a group of atheist kids tried to start their own bible study group. As soon as this happened the Christian community in the area went berserk. They insisted the atheists be denied access to the class rooms. Legally speaking the only recourse the principle had left to him was to ban all after school access to the class rooms for all groups.

...I appologise as I must stop here(I had more to say). But one of our hamsters has just died and I have to console my girlfriend. Let us talk of this later. Again I am sorry to break it off like this.