Oppressed Christians

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Az,

Now I by no means discard the claims of oppression but I would like to hear what you believe is the oppression you are experiencing. So please share what you have.

This is what I responded to. But I had a feeling that you were here only to criticize and debate about this subject instead of just making an inquiry.

Now, why do you think you are oppressed being an atheist?

It is pretty apparent by your comments you do not understand what the founding fathers of this nation had in mind when they established the Constitution of this United States. You may want to look into our history a little bit. You are very wrong about "separation of church and state".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. Why didn't you answer my question? Is this the way you are going to be?

[Botz]

Hi Az...sorry about the hamster.

I thought your definitions of Atheists and Agnostics were interesting...and I agree there are a whole spectrum of beliefs/non beliefs within the definition. I tend to just simplify things and call an Atheist someone who doesn't believe in G-d...and if they are evangelical or fervent in their self-imposed title then they tend to promote the idea that G-d does not exist in any form and the only beliefs that people have in any gods are man-made in the first place hence your well observed comments about the nuances of logic.

Belief and knowledge are certainly similar ...perhaps Descartes touched on it when he said.."I think therefore I am." perhaps it is a little like the chicken and the egg...'which comes first?'

In the case of G-d I find that belief/faith is the initiator and then this is strengthened through knowledge and also leads on to other things especially a deep love and affection...very much like a happy marriage.

Culture is identity. When you go to another culture and attempt to override their culture with yours it is expected that there will be resistance. Some less civil than others.

I see that when anyone nails their flag to the mast they are going to come under attack from those that oppose their views Christian or otherwise...perhaps when you displayed your atheist sticker on your car you were in a sense trying to override the local culture yourself.

As to promoting the good news. Be sure to examine the matter from the other perspective. What you seem to be claiming is that attempting to press your beliefs on others (ie oppressing their beliefs) should be a right. I fully understand that you believe this to be part of your belief set. But it is effectively attempting to assail anothers beliefs. This is not so much a case of Christians being oppressed as it is a case of not allowing them to oppress others. Or at least that seems to be my perspective.

Personally I don't really give this a great deal of thought...I am totally convinced that the only way for forgiveness of sins is through the Messiah Jesus that I use any opportunity that arises to present the Gospel to whosoever will listen/argue/debate... it is what I am commissioned to do...and if I get any flak I totally understand it goes with the territory...but I also expect the Holy Ghost to touch peoples lives over and beyond intellectual arguments or the exchange of ideas and awaken a spiritual response in a person.

As a footnote from a Jewish perspective many Rabbis generally dismiss atheism as blasphemy....I add a more conservative approach by Rabbi Kook.

"Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, first Chief Rabbi of the Jewish community in pre-state lsrael, held that atheists were not actually denying God; rather, they were denying one of man's many images of God. Since any man-made image of God can be considered an idol, Kook held that in practice one could consider atheists as helping true religion burn away false images of God, thus in the end serving the purpose of true monotheism. "

[Az_]

To Dad Earnie,

Sorry I didn't get around to answering your question. I did mention that one of our hamsters had just died. Perhaps you didn't read it.

As to why I responded to your post the way I did I was just saying that the incidents you were reporting did not strike me as oppression. I am not insisting they are not oppression. But I will challenge you a tad on them.

Now to answer your question.

As an Atheist, do you have a "foundation of moral values" that you stand upon, or do you just "go with the flow"?

There is of course no formal atheist organization indoctrinating atheists on how they are to form their moral behaviour. This does not mean atheists are immoral. It just means that we do not form our moral core around atheist principals. This is because atheism is not a set of principals. It is merely a statement of condition. Just as knowing a person is a theist does not inform you if they are a Christian or a Satanist knowing a person is an atheist tells you nothing about where they draw their moral principles from.

If you want to know where a particular atheist derives their moral code from you will have to ask them just like you will have to ask anyone else. And since you did I will try to give some insite into the source of my moral codes.

At the core of my moral code I guess you would say I share the principal of treat others as you would have them treat you. This is based on the observation that what I teach others to do they will in turn likely do to me. Thus if I want to be kicked by other people I should probably kick them.

This concept is found throughout many world philosophies and religions. Socrates spoke about it when on trial for supposedly teaching evil (instead of being a snooty know it all). He observed it was foolish to teach others to be evil as they will only turn your lessons against you.

I hope that answered your question somewhat. By no means was my reply an attempt to argue the issue. I just was trying to express my lack of understanding on how the things you mentioned were construed as oppression. My experience with oppression is more direct and invasive. Insults and vandalism on my property and person. I may simply be having trouble seeing how not being allowed to press your beliefs on others is oppression. I am trying to understand though. Perhaps together we can both learn.

[Az_]

Responding to Botz

I see that when anyone nails their flag to the mast they are going to come under attack from those that oppose their views Christian or otherwise...perhaps when you displayed your atheist sticker on your car you were in a sense trying to override the local culture yourself.

I suppose its a question of a monolithic society vs a diverse society. Typically where Christians will experience draconian oppression are in cultures that are homogenus in the extreme. Their presense is an aberation that is going to cause siginificant stress.

But here in the US we are a diverse society. While the majority may be theist or even Christian in a broad def we are an open and free society. Therefor the presense of my stickers is not to evangelyze nonbelievers (as if a sticker would shake your faith). Instead it is a calling card to my fellow atheists that they are not alone. Hence the reason I do not use any incindary stickers (and there are quite a few to choose of one wanted to).

Simply put, silence is death in the arena of ideas. I refuse to stay silent. I suspect others here refuse to stay silent on their ideas. I respect and support their right to do so. I even expect their ideas to flourish better. We simlpy do not have the methodology to spread our as you do. In fact our particular belief system tends to reject the idea of telling another person what to believe (which is why you never see door to door atheists trying to spread the word).

As to Descartes. He found the dividing line between abstract constructs and reality. What he realised is that the only thing we can truly know are those things which are a product of the mind. Anything external to that we are going to be forever riddled with uncertainty to varying degrees.

Regarding your final comments. Its a bit of a pickle. This freedom thing. Its natural to want to share the truth with our fellow citizens. Its natural to want to spread what we consider to be good news. Its kind of how our minds work. From birth we begin sharing information with each other. Parents teach their children by example. They begin to comprehend increasingly complex ideas. As we get older this continues. When we find out something we believe to be vital we want to share with our those we care about.

But as we get older our paths become increasingly unique. Some go down paths that are quite different from others. There is strength in this diversity. But there are also problems. The USA is rather special in how diverse it is. Our diversity may be part of the reason we are as strong as we are.

One of the problems in a diverse society is that not everyone defines right and wrong the same way. But the duty of living in a free society is to respect the freedoms of others as you wish yours to be respected. The golden rule. There is a heavy burden in this. Even though you "know" the other person to be heading into a dark path you have to respect their right to choose their path. You can provide guidance but if they reject it you cannot impose your will upon them. If this is too much a burden then perhaps freedom is too much a burden for some.

Its not easy. Imagine you are walking down the street and you notice someone's house is on fire. You see them sitting in their house seemingly unaware of the fire. Being a good person you rush to their rescue maybe even having to knock down the door. As you drag them outside against their protests you find that the house was not in fact on fire.

Matters would be so much easier if we could mandate reality. But we are caught in this uncertain world. Those that embrace freedom have to accept the fact that some people are going to be free to believe things they believe to be incredibly foolish. To impose your beliefs on them is not freedom. To talk to them and be decent to them in the hopes that they will learn from your example is freedom. The best thing seems to be to simply treat others as you would have them treat you.

[Guest Daystar]

Life in the US for the most part is void of oppression in any faith. That is the freedom to pursue your faith. There is another form of oppression in Christianity. There are some ministries that refuse to entertain debate or differing opinions and would rather have you meet with another Christian group which is open to more thoughtful discussions. Then certain ministries practice oppression by silencing critics by means of lawsuits.

[Work in Progress]

You are responsible for your own emotional response to other's actions. If it offends you look away.

Respectfully, I submit to you that that is a cop out. Why should the responsibility fall on me? Let those engaging in the abhorrant behavior bear the responsibility. The answer isn't in me, it is in them. And, it is abhorrant behavior, no matter how much our "new" society tries to indoctrinate us that it is perfectly normal. Sure, I can look away, but the price paid is the continuance of the wicked downward spiral our society has taken. This country was founded by men who wanted to flee here to worship God freely. They believed in the Bible and its principals. Somewhere along the way, Christians were timid and "looked away" and now we live in a perverse society far from what the founders intended. No, I will not look away. I am holding out hope that there is still hope for my grandchildren - and I will teach them not to look away either.

Again its the idea that the government shouldn't really be in the business of telling us what to believe.

Having a plaque on a courthouse wall is not telling us what to believe. It is a tribute to the principals our founding fathers believed in and based the laws on.

It is again not allowing Christians to use the government to press their beliefs on the rest of the population.

I beg to differ - the country was based on those Christian beliefs. If anything, those who hate those beliefs have slowly but steadily pressed their secular humanist beliefs on the rest of the population.

As for the rest of your post, ITA.

No, we really have little oppression here, especially compared with other countries. However, it is definately becoming a hostile environment for Christians. And, I don't downplay your experiences being oppressed as an Atheist - I'm sure that is true. Let's look on the bright side- BOTH of us can stand up and shout from the rooftops our beliefs in a free country.

And I'm sorry about the hamster.

[His son]

The Christians, all circumcised in the heart believers who are named in The Bible as both Christians, and Jews can expect nothing else but to be persecuted, and hated by the rest of the world. We are like their guilty consience that will not go away. In their heart of hearts they know they are wrong but they don't want to take responsibility so they blame it all on us, and will wind up taking it out on us with physical, and emotional persecution just like they did with Jesus. That's what He meant when He told us that we would do all things He did, and to take up our crosses and follow Him. We have got to take every step of the rest of our lives at the direction of The Holy Spirit, totally depending on Him to lead us through(not out of) like Jesus prayed God not to take us out of the world but to keep us from giving in to the evils of. He told us to lay up all our treasures in heaven, and we are hated by the world. I admonish all of you to read The Bible, pray always in The Spirit, and watch in prayer for all the saints. Cloth yourselves with the full armor of God, and stand fast on God's Word.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Az,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Welcome to this christian board, fellow atheist. I am so glad that there is at least one other atheist here. Thanks for speaking out and identifying yourself. You are correct that silence kills ideas.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Az_]

Work in progress said

Somewhere along the way, Christians were timid and "looked away" and now we live in a perverse society far from what the founders intended. No, I will not look away. I am holding out hope that there is still hope for my grandchildren - and I will teach them not to look away either.

I have read too much Jefferson and Paine to accept that the chief architecs of the Declaration of Indepence and the Constitution were focused on creating a Christian nation. I will agree that the original pilgrims may have come here to try to establish a religious community. But they were not the only people to come here. America was a bold new nation made of a variety of people. Some pious. Some heretical. They embraced new ideas as well as respecting the wisdom of old ones.

I suspect we are going to be forced into a position of having to agree to disagree on the issue of the intent of the founding fathers. But I will put to you that freedom without freedom of mind is meaningless. If I am not free to believe whatever I may without interference from my government then no one is free in any sense of the word. We can argue all you want about the founding fathers and no one will be swayed either way. But it is a simple truth that you either support freedom of belief or you do not support freedom.

Its fortunate that the founders put down some words describing exactly what it was they were trying to establish. Lets look at them.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Here is another example of them setting down their intent.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

And then to make matters even more clear they set down the Ammendments. And the very first thing they talked about was ... well they said it so much better than I.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

These words are what this nation is about. These laws are the foundation upon which this great society has grown. Yes there are problems. Yes freedom comes with a price and a heavy responsibility for each person that enjoys it. Freedom means tolerating those you do not agree with. I do not agree with you on many issues (this is a wild guess). But I will put my life on the line (and being an atheist means I am making a rather large offer here) to defend your rights as I would expect you to do the same for me. That is what being an American is about.

Yes I understand that you look around and see the world in a state that you believe god would disapprove of. But that is freedom. If you wish to change that you have to do it with words. Not with laws. I too look around and am concerned about issues. But I cannot legislate my wishes on you.

[His son]

The fact of the matter is that Jesus is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Everything in this universe is under His dominion. He gave man freewill choice, and man chose to set up a government made up of men, and the rest is history. Those man made governments, and philosophies are going to lead the many that follow the braodway that leads to the pit of hell and eternal suffering. Only the few that choose the straight, and narrow path that leads to entrance to heaven will spend eternity in peace with their triune God. We will all live live eternally.