Oppressed Christians

[apothanein kerdos]

Are Christians in the US opressed? I will admit, it is getting hard to have Christian moral values and still be in a public school system or in a secular job. However, are we oppressed? I have never recieved a beating for my faith by either a government official or a civilian. I have never been threatened, had my life on the line, or had to sacrifice my family to follow Christ. The vast majority of Christians world-wide have...thus, it's safe to say when American Christians say they're opressed, it's merely a self-victimization. What I find so funny is they complain about it when we're told to take pride in it.

[FaithfulFollower]

AZ,

Personally it is hard not for me not to feel that no matter what ones religious beliefs are, even if none at all will be something that gives others reason to make those who believe a certain way, feel his or her life is not worth it at some point in time. Not to say that ones such as yourself who do not share Christian beliefs are not to ever feel as though your beliefs are being threatened at a site such as this one. For it could happen, and often does, if not here then elsewhere.

Take for example sites such as Worthy Boards, but perhaps not of a Christian fellowship. Like, there is currently a site of which myself and perhaps a good number of other believers go to visit, and it is a battle to stand up for ones beliefs daily.

Even in the U.S. it is not uncommon for religious beliefs of Christians to be well mocked, as well as provoked into hiding. Though this should not be done with any religious belief if you ask me.

Take for example this as well. Prayer, which to me is an example of the freedom of speach is no longer allowed in schools unless done by a student. Organized prayer is no longer allowed. Yet people of other religions or beliefs such as that of agnostics and atheists, (Forgive me, no offense is ment here.) are free to practice as they choose. Homosexuals can also marry, which to many of those of the Christian faith, as well as those of perhaps similar religions also really do not have a say in.

The truth is, America itself is also being persecuted due to the fact that most, if not a large population within the country is Christian. Think of the current war at hand, though many do attempt to deny it. We are not just in a common war here, this is also something that could be looked upon as a religious war. For those who are fighting against us in Islam do not only hate those who live in the U.S. because they are American and can excercise their rights, but also many of us who live here are Christian.

Just depends on how one chooses to look at it I suppose. Please forgive me if any of this was harsh, or at all threatening to your beliefs, for that was not my intent.

With Love In Christ,

Danielle

Edited October 1, 2004 by FaithfulFollower

[Az_]

Even in the U.S. it is not uncommon for religious beliefs of Christians to be well mocked, as well as provoked into hiding. Though this should not be done with any religious belief if you ask me.

I guess this is an aspect I am not familiar with. Understandably I have not been mocked for being a Christian. But I guess I have just never witnessed someone being mocked for being a Christian either. This is the kind of thing I am asking about. How regularly does it occurr? Do you expect to be ridiculed if you mention your beliefs? Do you expect to be shunned if you mention your beliefs?

Take for example this as well. Prayer, which to me is an example of the freedom of speach is no longer allowed in schools unless done by a student. Organized prayer is no longer allowed. Yet people of other religions or beliefs such as that of agnostics and atheists, (Forgive me, no offense is ment here.) are free to practice as they choose.

This seems to be the key area where confusion between the sides arises. Do we agree that an indivdiual student or a group of students is free to pray if they wish in school? As I understand it there is nothing stopping any student of praying any time they wish. The only thing that is not allowed is for the school (ie the government) to tell the students to pray. I am having trouble understanding how this is a free speech issue or a matter of oppression. Help me understand if you can. It is not the job of the government to endorse or enforce any particular religion.

I have never heard of any other group being allowed to have a government endorsed period of prayer. Including atheists (we don't pray). Its been some time since I was in school so maybe something new has happened. If thats the case then it should be stopped. Its not the job of the government to tell your kids what religion to believe in. If they are doing this they should stop.

Homosexuals can also marry, which to many of those of the Christian faith, as well as those of perhaps similar religions also really do not have a say in.

This is an issue I really have trouble understanding. I hope some here can shed some light on it for me. How is what two other people do in the privacy of their own house or in the embrace of their onw friends and family oppressive in any way to those not involved? I don't get it. I understand that some believe it to be an abomination. But this society is supposedly predicated on the idea of freedom. There is even this clause in the Declaration of Independence about pursuit of happiness being one of that absolute freedoms. Now I can understand those that oppose it being concerned for their particular souls and such. But in choosing to live in a free society it seems to me you are going to be exposed to individuals and groups that are going to be doing things that you really don't like. They are not doing it to bug you. They are doing it because they are pursuing their ideal of happiness.

I really do not understand this issue. I am asking for help in understanding how this is such an issue for those that are so strongly against it. I know of religions that endorse such unions. So are you suggesting that these religions just don't belong in a free society? I guess this is where the cognitive disonance kicks in for me. How can someone be happy about living in a free society and not embrace others pursuing their freedoms?

The truth is, America itself is also being persecuted due to the fact that most, if not a large population within the country is Christian. Think of the current war at hand, though many do attempt to deny it. We are not just in a common war here, this is also something that could be looked upon as a religious war. For those who are fighting against us in Islam do not only hate those who live in the U.S. because they are American and can excercise their rights, but also many of us who live here are Christian.

Belief is the single most common issue people wind up killing each other over. I think it is a better idea to talk about things with each other when we disagree than to kill each other. I believe that people are basically good. I believe we basically hope for the best for each other. I believe that what we believe can sometimes come up at cross purposes with each other. I do not think anything is solved by war other than showing who had more weapons. War does not change other people's minds.

Atheists tend to be very aware of the conflicts between beliefs. If only because we often wind up being one of the first victims when the killing starts(atheism does not mean a stamp of innocence as there have been plenty of atheists that get a belief in their head and start killing others for theirs). Think how a religious conflict looks to the eyes of an atheist. Two groups with erronious(opinion) beliefs arguing (with guns) about who's beliefs are right. It appears to be the height of insanity to us (not suggesting believers are insane).

Understand I offer my views here not as a challenge but instead that you might have another perspective on the matter. Atheists and Believers seldom sit down and discuss things without arguing key points (gods existance etc). In the silence that brews between us ignornace festers and grows. The only way to dismantle this ignorance is to talk about things with one another. We are going to disagree on things. But as we talk we will find the things we do agree on and we can build bridges between the rest to increase our understanding of each other. And in this way we can build a better free society with one another arm in arm instead of head butted against head.

[WayneB]

Az,

Good question. I glanced through some of the answers but not all so I may be repeating something already said. I don't have much time these days.

Your focus is oppression in the Western world so I stick to that.

What if you were told that you could no longer where the jersey of your favorite football team to school? What if someone found the play "To Kill a Mockingbird", a wonderful piece of literature, offensive so it was banned from all public libraries. What if you had a piece of jewelry that was passed down from your father and you were told that you could no longer wear it to work.

ALL these things and more have happened to Christians across the country. Why? If an atheist is firm in his understanding, what does he have to fear? Why is the A.C.L.U so busy suing school boards, businesses and public officials forcing the removal of anything and everything Christian in nature? Why are Christians expected to be tolerant of things they find wrong when others aren't expected to be tolerant of them? Respect goes both ways.

Az, you are a polite and considerate person. I would venture to say that you don't care if I keep my Bible on my desk at work or if I choose to place a Christian emblem on my car. It is my choice, right? Then please join us and defend our rights because the A.C.L.U. and the secular world are trying to remove all traces of Christianity....not just in public places.

Be Blessed,

Wayne

[Az_]

What if you were told that you could no longer where the jersey of your favorite football team to school? What if someone found the play "To Kill a Mockingbird", a wonderful piece of literature, offensive so it was banned from all public libraries. What if you had a piece of jewelry that was passed down from your father and you were told that you could no longer wear it to work.

ALL these things and more have happened to Christians across the country. Why? If an atheist is firm in his understanding, what does he have to fear? Why is the A.C.L.U so busy suing school boards, businesses and public officials forcing the removal of anything and everything Christian in nature? Why are Christians expected to be tolerant of things they find wrong when others aren't expected to be tolerant of them? Respect goes both ways.

My understanding of dress codes is the impetus is coming from conservative sources. Personally I am against such doctrinal tactics. You want to wear a cross I will defend your right to wear that cross. In school, in court, or on the job.

Can you tell me who tried to ban To Kill a Mockingbird. This is one of the most important masterpieces on the subject of tolerance our society has created. Banning books is a horrendous idea.

I am familiar with several stories of kids being told they could not wear their wiccan stars and even the occiasional star of David. But I must admit I am not familiar with any cases of crosses being banned. The only thing I can imagine is that the school board decided the only way it could deal with the issue of allowing such jewlry to be worn was to allow all to wear whatever they wanted or to ban all. You really can't single out one group and say they get to wear their symbols and another can't. Again I would love to hear where such bannings have occurred.

I suspect we have differing views of the ACLU. This is part of what I am trying to work through here. My perseption of when the ACLU gets involved is when someone is being harmed by another or having their rights stripped away. I would expect the ACLU to jump all over a school board that tried to ban the wearing of religious jewlry. If this is not the case then they have a very nasty letter coming from me in the near future.

As to why they sue school boards. Again this is my perspective. It seems they target cases where the school steps of the seperation clause and attempts to establish a particular doctrine. This is certainly debatable and I would welcome how this differs with your perspective.

As to defending your right to believe as you choose yes I will put my life on the line to make sure you have the same rights I enjoy. Its the responsibility of freedom. The cost is sometimes you have to let someone go on acting as they choose to. A free society cannot mandate belief. It insists that the only way you can change anothers beliefs is to talk to them civilally. When civility ends then it becomes the job of all those who love freedom to step in and try to return it.

Let me asure you. I associate with very active atheists and humanists. Our intent is not to remove all traces of belief from our society. We truly cherish the idea of freedom of thought and this extends to believers and not just ourselves. We recognise the threat that autoratative indoctrinated mandated belief contains. Yes we may hope that the world frees itself of what we believe are erronious beliefs. Just as you hope that we find a path to Jesus. But we would fight anyone that suggested that you do not have the right to practice your religion as you see fit. The only caveat being as long as you do not harm someone else (ie human sacrifices are right out but I don't see that as a threat from Christians). I will stand by you arm in arm defending your right to believe what you will. Admittedly I may offer suggestions as to why your particular belief may be wrong, but this is only because I value you as an individual and think you are worth it. And I trust that you too will defend my rights while trying to tell me about the truth of God and his only Son Jesus because you love me.

[WayneB]

Can you tell me who tried to ban To Kill a Mockingbird.

[Az_]

What about the Bible? It is the most published book and considered by many non-Christians alike to be a Masterpiece of literature....even greater than "To Kill a Mockingbird". Why is it not read and studied in schools across the country? Instead, in many cases we ban it from our school and workplace.

The Bible is a critical part of a number of religions. It can be said to be the very doctrine of the religions. I think the US government advocating teaching from the Bible (as sensible as you may honestly believe it to be) would be a clear violation of the seperation clause. Ask yourself what sort of consternation would be caused if they began teaching your children from the Koran. The Eight Fold Path. The Tao Te Ching. Or any number of other remarkable religious tome. Do you want L Ron Hubbard being taught to your children by the Government?

I am of the opinion that a properly stocked Library should have a fair representation of all religious tomes. However in the case of school officials their job is to represent the government. The government cannot take sides in matters of religion. In the eyes of the government there can be no difference between Christianity or Bahaism.

As to the poor child who was put through the tormment that is our legal system. I believe the teacher overreacted. But unfortunately the anger generated on both sides has created an environment where the schools will err on the side of caution. This is a mistake in my opinion. But it is a mistake I believe born of an understandable situation.

Perhaps if we find a way of lowering the hostility between the sides schools will not be so nervous about such issues. But as long as Christians and Secularists are ready to jump down each others throats those caught in between are going to be gun shy. We both need to remember that freedom requires respect for other's beliefs.

Edited October 1, 2004 by Az_

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings AZ,

Please visit the American Center for Law & Justice operated by Jay Sekulow at:

http://www.aclj.org/

Or you may wish to visit Voice of the Martyrs at:

http://www.persecution.com

If you wish more, I can provide that too.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Botz]

Az...

Matters would be so much easier if we could mandate reality. But we are caught in this uncertain world. Those that embrace freedom have to accept the fact that some people are going to be free to believe things they believe to be incredibly foolish. To impose your beliefs on them is not freedom. To talk to them and be decent to them in the hopes that they will learn from your example is freedom. The best thing seems to be to simply treat others as you would have them treat you.

Interesting...the bible says.

1Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The preaching of the Gospel is not an intellectual exercise nor an attempt to persuade people that this is a good philosophy...rather it is to call people to repentance and to point them to the love of G-d through Messiah...it is a cry for people to wake up to the fact that they are spiritual beings and yet they are living in darkness and their destiny is eternity cut off from G-d..therefore they need a Saviour....and until the Holy Ghost persuades them and changes their heart...it will seem like foolishness.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Botz,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Unfortunately, I am one of those prudent fellows who require evidence to support extraordinary claims of the existence of a deity. You see, I was brought up strangely. My teachers taught me to examine the evidence before you believe anything extraordinary, including what they themselves claimed.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog