Mutations do not produce real change

[nebula]

How many mutations does it take for an organism to change from being classified from one Family to a different Family? Or from one Order to another Order? Or from on Class to another Class?

A similar question would be, at what precise moment does a rainbow shift from Yellow to Green?

Color blending and fading does not compare to the mutations required for the generations of one population to evolve from one Family to another Family.

Can we find a population of an organism exhibiting mutated changes causing them to be evolving into a species that would deem being reclassified into another Family, Order, or Class from the parent population?

This seems to be a very odd question, a 'transitional' species is only transitional relative to the species that existed before and after it. We are all transitional species after all [assuming we continue to evolve].

But at some point, organisms can no longer be classified by the same Family, Order, and/or Class in order for the Theory of Evolution to have occurred.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I would like to set my parameters right here.

The big bang (the alleged beginning of the universe) is the only scientific ammunition left to theists.

What?

That's just foolish. Viole, I've been showing you on the other thread that we have a cumulative case including... well everything, including biology. To which you're only response has been to hide in the shadows of arguments of ignorance.

My only response to this then is, "O please".

[enoob57]

A growing number of scientists and philosophers are saying with greater confidence that Darwinism, as a mode of explaining all of life, is failing and failing badly.

These scientists would be........?

http://www.creationinfo.com/list.htm

A list of creation scientists who are/have contributed to science

1) Dr. Raymond Damadian - inventor of MRI device

2) Dr. Raymond Jones - CSIRO Gold Medal, detoxified Leucaena for livestock

consumption

3) Dr. Keith Wanser - 48 published papers, seven U.S. patents

(Professor of Physics, Cal State Fullerton)

4) Dr. Russell Humphreys - successful planetary magnetic predictions

(nuclear physicist, Sandia National Laboratories )

5) Dr. Kurt Wise - Ph.D. in paleontology under Stephen J. Gould at Harvard

6) Jules H. Poirier - designer of radar FM altimeter on Apollo Lunar

Landing Module

7) Dr. Sinaseli Tshibwabwa - discovered 7 new species of fish in the Congo

8) Dr. Saami Shaibani - "International Expert" by the US Depts of Labor and

Justice. 100 published articles (B.A. (Hons), M.A., M.Sc., D.Phil, a

physics professor and researcher)

1) (ID) Dr. Henry F. Schaefer III - five-time Nobel nominee

(professor of chemistry at the University of Georgia)

2) (ID) Dr. William S. Harris - $3.5 million in research grants, over 70

scientific papers, Director of the Lipoprotein Research Laboratory at Saint

Luke’s Hospital. Chair in Metabolism and Vascular Biology and is a

Professor of Medicine at the University of Missouri.

Others:

Dr. Emmett L. Williams, Ph.D. Materials Engineering

Dr. David A. Kaufmann, Ph.D. Anatomy

Dr. Glen W. Wolfrom, Ph.D. Ruminant Nutrition

Dr. Theodore P. Aufdemberge, Ph.D. Physical Geography,

Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Ph.D. Physics

Dr. George F. Howe, Ph.D. Botany

Dr. Wayne F. Frair, Ph.D. Serology

Dr. John R. Meyer, Ph.D. Zoology

Dr. Robert Goette, Ph.D. Chemistry

Dr. Lane Lester -- Ph.D. in genetics from Purdue University

Dr. Andrew Snelling -- Ph.D. in geology, U. of Sydney

Dr. Don Batten, consultant plant physiologist

Dr. Gary Parker, Ed.D. in Biology/Geology, Ball State University

Dr. John Baumgardner, Los Alamos Laboratories

Dr. Donald B. DeYoung, Ph.D., Physics, Grace College, Winona Lake, Indiana

Dr. Eric Norman, Ph.D, Biochemistry, Texas A&M University

Dr. Clifford A. Wilson - Archaeologist, Author of "Crash go the Chariots"

Michael Oard, MS, Atmospheric Science, U. of Washington, meteorologist

Keyoshi Takahashi, Ph.D., Botany - has had research published in Nature.

Dr. Andy McIntosh, Reader in Combustion Theory at Leeds U., U.K.

Dr. George Marshall, Ph.D., Ophthalmic Science, U of Glasgow, Scotland

chartered biologist, member of the Institute of Biology

Dr. Danny Faulkner -- Ph.D. Astronomy, Indiana University, Associate

Professor, U. of South Carolina, Lancaster

Dr. David Menton, Associate Professor of Anatomy, Washington University

School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri

Prof. Maciej Giertych, Ph.D.(Toronto), D.Sc.(Poznan), head of the Genetics

Dept. of the Polish Academy of Sciences, Institute of Dendrology, Kornik,

Poland.

Dr. James Allan, M.Sc.Agric., PhD., retired senior lecturer in the Dept. of

Genetics, Univ. of Stellenbosch, South Africa

Dr. Andre Eggen, Ph.D. in animal genetics from the Federal Institute of

Technology in Switzerland, research scientist for the French government

Dr. Brian Stone, Ph.D., Head of the Dept. of Mechanical Engineering,

U. of Western Australia

Dr. Donald Chittick, Ph.D. in physical chemistry, Oregon State U.,

Associate Professor of Chemistry , U. of Puget Sound

Dr. Giuseppe Sermonti, Ph.D., geneticist and microbiologist, has served as

Professor of Genetics at U. of Palermo & U. of Perugia

Dr. Andre Eggen, Institute Nationale de la Agrinomique of France, working

on genetic defect in cows known as the Bulldog gene defect.

Dave Phillips, M.S., physical anthropology, California State U., working on

Ph.D. in paleontology

Jonathan D. Sarfati, Ph.D., F.M. -- Ph.D. in Chemistry from Victoria

univeristy of Wellington, New Zealand. New Zealand chess champion.

Dr. Jack Cuozzo, orthodontist (DDS, University of Pennsylvania and MS in

Oral Biology, Loyola University of Chicago) and an original researcher of

Neanderthals, is the author of Buried Alive. This book sets forth the

thesis that human craniofacial structures continue to change with aging and

that Neanderthals were humans who lived to be hundreds of years old

(post-flood). If anything, humans are devolving.

Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo, physiologist for the human engine of the Gossamer

Condor and Gossamer Albatross man-powered flight projects (reported in the

National Geographic), received his doctorate from the University of Iowa.

Dr. Mastropaolo does not believe evolution qualifies as science.

Dr. Robert A. Herrmann -- Professor of Mathematics, U. S. Naval Academy

http://mathweb.mathsci.usna.edu/faculty/herrmannra/

http://www.serve.com/herrmann/main.html

Dr. Ian Macreadie -- molecular biology and microbiology researcher,

Principal Research Scientist at the Biomolecular Research Institute of

Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization

(CSIRO)

Dr. Felix Konotey-Ahulu, M.D., FRCP, DTMH, world authority on sickle-cell

disease, 25 years' experience as physician, clinical geneticist and

consultant in Ghana and subsequently in London. Visiting professor at

Howard University College of Medicine in Washington, and honorary

consultant to its Centre for Sickle Cell Disease. Author of 643-page

monograph "The Sickle Cell Disease Patient", Macmillan, 1991.

Dr. AwSwee-Eng, Ph.D., former Associate Professor of Biochemistry, Univ. of

Singapore, head of Dept. of Nuclear Medicine & Director of Clinical

Research , Singapore General Hospital, Author of about 30 technical papers

in biochemistry and nuclear medicine.

John K. Reed ¨ Principal Engineer, Westinghouse Savannah River Company,

(1999-present) ¨ degrees - B.S. geology (Furman Univ.), M.S. geology (Univ.

of Georgia), Ph.D. geology (Univ. of South Carolina) ¨ other qualifications

- Senior Production Geologist (Sun Exploration and Production Co., Houston,

1982-1988); Research Asst. Prof. (Earth Sciences and Resources Institute,

Univ. of South Carolina, 1988-1991); Exploration Manager (PetraTex, Dallas,

1991-1992) Partner (Strata Consulting Services, Dallas, 1992); Sr.

Scientist (Westinghouse Savannah River Company, 1992-1999); ten articles in

CRS Quarterly; 14 articles in secular scientific journals, Associate Editor

for Geology for CRS Quarterly.

From the past:

Kepler -- Laws of planetary motion.

Francis Bacon -- contributed to formalization of scientific method

Linnaeus -- classification

John Ray -- Founder of biological science

Robert Boyle -- Founder of modern chemistry

Sir Isaac Newton -- gravity, optics, calculus

Blaise Pascal -- mathematics, calculating machine, air pressure

Charles Babbage -- invented "difference engine," designed computer

Gregor Mendel -- first studies of heredity

James Joule -- physics, inc. beginning of thermodynamics

William Thomson, Lord Kelvin -- Physics

Michael Faraday -- Physics

John Dalton -- chemistry

Louis Pasteur -- immunization, disproof of spontaneous generation

Sir John Herschel -- mathematician and astronomer, called the theory "the

law of higgledy-pigglety"

James Clerk Maxwell -- physicist, developed theory of electromagnetism

Adam Sedgwick -- geologist

Andrew Murray -- entomologist

Richard Owen -- coined the term "dinosaur"

Louis Agassiz, founder of modern glacial geology

Werner von Braun -- Leader of early US space program (Creation 16(2))

James Irwin -- astronaut, walked on the moon

A.E. Wilder-Smith (deceased)- 3 earned doctorates, master of seven

languages, UN advisor

More on Humphreys (taken from "Starlight and Time" p4 'About the Author'):

2 US patents;

Co-inventor of laser-triggered "Rimfire" high-voltage switches;

Winner of one of Industrial Research Magazine's IR-100 award;s

Winner of 2 awards from Sandia, including an Award for Excellence for

contributions to light ion-fusion target theory.

More on Raymond Jones:

Urrbrae Award in recognition of practical significance of his work for the

grazing industry. Described by CSIRO chief as "one of the top few CSIRO

scientists in Australia". Source: Creation Mag 21#1 p20ff

John Baumgardner's 3-D supercomputer model of plate tectonic model, reported

in New Scientist 16/1/93 p19.

Len Cram Ph.D. discovered way to 'grow' opals in a matter of months

(Creation Mag. 17#1 pp14-17). CSIRO scientists "can't distinguish Len's opal

from natural opal even under an electron microscope - they look identical!".

The motivation for his research was "to find out how opals form so as to

discredit uniformitarian (slow and gradual) geological theories."

Dr David Pennington, plastic surgeon. The first to have successfully

reattached a human ear. Creation Mag. 22#3 pp17-19.

Eric Norman, Ph.D. Biochemistry, Director of Norman Clinical Laboratory,

Inc. Pioneer researcher in Vit B12. (Creation Mag. 17#3 p28)

Forrest Mims, inventor of atmospheric haze sensor (Scientific American May97

p80)

Angela Meyer, Ph.D., Horticultural Science. Awarded New Zealand Science &

Technology bronze medal for excellence in Kiwi fruit research & service to

science, 1994. Source: "In Six Days" p130

John Mann, awarded M.B.E. for scientific work on controlling the spread of

the prickly pear cactus in Australia. State representative on the Australian

Weeds Committee, chairman of the Noxious Weeds Committe, member of the

Interdepartmental Committee for Woody Plant Control. Source: AiG

Ian Macreadie, Ph.D. Molecular biologist. Winner of Australian Society for

Microbiology's top award for outstanding contributions to research, 1995.

(Creation Mag. 21#2 p17)

Lammerts, Walter, 1904-1996. Ph.D. genetics. Winner of 12 All-American rose

selection awards. (CRSQ33#2 p79)

John K G. Kramer, Ph.D., biochemistry, has identified, characterised and

synthesised the structure of numerous food, bacterial and biological

components. He was one of the core scientists who evaluated the

toxicological, nutritional and biochemical properties of canola oil and

demonstrated its safety. Associate Editor of the journal LIPIDS. Source:

"In Six Days" p34.

Dr. Koop, C. Everett. Surgeon General of the United States. Awarded the Ladd

Medal by the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the Dennis Brown Gold Medal

by the British Association of Pediatric Surgeons. Source: "Scientists Who

Believe", ed. by Barrett & Fisher, Moody Press, 1984. pp153, 158.

[The following quote is taken from a CRSnet posting 28/12/99 by Paul Humber:

"C. Everett Koop, while Surgeon General of the United States, said (in a

private letter to me) that he thought evolution was impossible on the basis

of mathematics alone."]

Konotey-Ahulu, Felix. M.D. FRCP, DTMH. Clinical geneticist & consultant

physician. World authority on sickle-cell anaemia. Author of "The Sickle

Cell Disease Patient" Macmillan, 1991, 643pp. (Creation Mag. 16:2 p40)

Terry Hamblin, MB, ChB, DM, FRCP, FRCPath. Professor at Southampton

University. Described in Radio Times as "one of Britain's leading leukaemia

specialists". (Radio Times entry 8 April 98 about programme 'Counterblast')

John Grebe, 1900-1984. D.Sc. Case Inst. of Technology. "In 1943 he was the

youngest man ever to receive the Chemical Industry Medal for his outstanding

contributions." (CRSQ 21#4 p199)

Charles W. Harrison, Jr. Ph.D. Former Faculty member at Harvard & Princeton,

followed by 16 years research in electromagnetics at Sandia National

Laboratories. Co-author of 'Antennas and Waves: A Modern Approach.' MIT

Press, 1969. Source: "Creation: Acts, Facts, Impacts". Edited by Morris,

Gish & Hillestad. Creation-Life Publishers, 1974. p178.

Fliermans, Carl B. PhD Microbial Ecologist, Dupont Company. "In the mid 80'

s, Dr. Fliermans led a research team of scientists in a U.S. Department of

Energy program called 'The Microbiology of the Deep Subsurface', where

microbiologists looked for microbial life hundreds and thousands of feet

below the earth's surface. Thousands of microorganisms previously unknown to

the scientific world were discovered. Dr. Fliermans cochaired and coedited

the First International Symposium on Subsurface Microbiology and received an

'Outstanding Leadership in Science' award (only four in the nation had been

given) from the U.S. Department of Energy for his work." Sources:

Acts&Facts 10#1 p3 and A&F ICR Faculty Profile.

Malcolm Cutchins, Ph.D. Prof of Aerospace Engineering, Auburn. Twice winner

of Auburn's Outstanding Faculty Award. Recognized by the journal 'Industrial

Research' for "developing one of the 100 most significant new technical

products of 1973." Source: Impact86.

Stuart Burgess, Ph.D. Lecturer in Engineering Design at Bristol U.

Recipient of Worshipful Company of Turners Engineering Design Gold Medal.

Source: 'Hallmarks of Design' by Stuart Burgess, DayOne publications, 2000.

Ker C. Thomson, D.Sc., Geophysics. Former Director of Terrestrial Sciences

Division, Air Force Geophysics Laboratory, in charge of Air Force research

programs in seismology, geodesy, gravity and geology. Sources: Act&Facts.

W R. Thompson (deceased), FRS. Professor, Director, Commonwealth Inst. of

Biological Control, Ottawa. Listed in Who's Who.

Dr. Ben Aaron, Prof & Chief of cardio-thoracic surgery at George Washington

U. Medical Centre, Washington D.C. Operated on President Reagan after he was

shot by assisin. Sources: Impact86; 'Operation Raw Hide' by Paul Thomsen,

ICR.

PS: you could also mention creation scientists who have been listed in

American Men of Science, Who's Who ... etc. E.g. Gish was (still is?) listed

in American Men of Science, Gentry in Who's Who in America. There are quite

a few more.

[MorningGlory]

PS: you could also mention creation scientists who have been listed in

American Men of Science, Who's Who ... etc. E.g. Gish was (still is?) listed

in American Men of Science, Gentry in Who's Who in America. There are quite

a few more.

Way to go, Steven.......I'm flabbergasted.

[enoob57]

Enoob, the question I asked was, who are these scientists who are increasingly starting to doubt "Darwinism" as an effective means of explaining biological life forms [and the changes between them]? I didn't say anything about naming scientists who were Christian. Dr. Francis Collins is/was the head of the Human Genome project, he happens to be a Christian as well. He also doesn't doubt evolutionary biology or the claims the theory makes. So your list of scientists who were also of a Christian faith is irrelevant to my query.

The people I listed are Creation scientist meaning they reject the evolutionary module... meaning they believe the accuracy of the Genesis account! Some of which came to know God because of science! I have read can't remember from whom but in their intimate knowledge of the scientific community that was the case.... It is so filled with holes and crisis since molecular biology and the single cell. Darwin Himself stated his hypothesis rested on simple makeup of the single cell! Well I'm sure your up to speed on the wipe out! I'm no where near a scientist but can quickly learn from facts that the whole pill is poison and knowledge increasingly is showing just how bad! Love, Steven

[nebula]

Color blending and fading does not compare to the mutations required for the generations of one population to evolve from one Family to another Family.

Individuals don't evolve, populations do, therefore the "fading" analogy works just fine. You're not going to find drastic changes all of a sudden you're going to see minute changes over a stretch of time.

But at some point, organisms can no longer be classified by the same Family, Order, and/or Class in order for the Theory of Evolution to have occurred.

I guess I'm starting to wonder what our point is? I don't mean that statement facetiously, what are we getting at?

My question was: How many mutations does it take for an organism to change from being classified from one Family to a different Family? Or from one Order to another Order? Or from on Class to another Class?

In every example given for evolution, people look at minor anatomical changes. For evolution to occur as theorized, major anatomical as well as physiological changes needed and need to occur.

[enoob57]

Secondarily, find SECULAR scientists who doubt evolution. If a creationist doubts evolution then what do I care? I can feel pretty certain that their religious obligations may have gotten in the way of their scientific judgment.

There leaves little to discuss then I know there 'IS' God by Spiritual acquaintance and you by the god of this world and your senses.... death will be the determinate for both..... Love, Steven

[nebula]

My question was: How many mutations does it take for an organism to change from being classified from one Family to a different Family? Or from one Order to another Order? Or from on Class to another Class?

In every example given for evolution, people look at minor anatomical changes. For evolution to occur as theorized, major anatomical as well as physiological changes needed and need to occur.

I don't know enough to answer the question and speaking candidly I'm not sure the question is a sound one. How can someone predict the number of mutations it takes to go from one family to another? I'm not so sure the question is really answerable, I'm also not sure the question is intended to be.

You make it sound so simple to occur, yet when pressed for details you can't understand the question. Oy!

If , say, canines and felines have a common ancestor, at some point dramatic mutations in different populations occurred that would require the two to be classified not as different species by as different families. Most likely, were this common ancestor to be discovered, it would be classified as a different family than both, would it not? Or as one but not the other?

Forget percentages, how many genes would have had to have mutated in order for such changes to occur?

How many genes were mutated even between homonid families? (Again, number of genes, not percentages.)

[~candice~]

Hey D-9 I have a question for you, you've probably answered it before, and maybe I even asked the question but I have forgotten or not heard how you reconcile an issue with evolution and the Christian faith.

The bible says death is a result of the fall (OK, I think you understand that to be spiritual death not physical death). But still, evolution requires the death of many many individuals over millions of years. How does a process dependent on death gel with your understanding of a loving personal God?

[Guest]

..... This is not the mind of a scientist, it's the mind of someone who's high on religion....

A Mind High On The Truth

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:14-15

Will Never For Long Make An Atheistic Evolutionary Apologist

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. Jeremiah 32:40

Not Will This Sordid Religion Of The Material Guy Ever Point A Soul To The Only Life Affirming Conclusion

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

For Holding Up Evolution As Knowledge Is Just Blowing Chaff Into The Eyes Of Seekers Of Wisdom

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

And The Sad Thing Is, You Know It

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psalms 119:1-3

But Still You Push

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

Hallucinates

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c)

~

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe