Mutations do not produce real change

[nebula]

Here

Oenothera lamarckiana -> O. gigas

Primula verticillata + P. floribunda -> P. kewensis

OK, here we go again.

GenusA speciesA led to GenusA speciesB

Is there an observable example of GenusA species? leading to GenusB species?

Or is there an observable example of FamilyA Genus? species? leading to FamilyB Genus? species?

[Guest]

.... the more education you have the more likely you are to accept evolution; and the more you understand about evolution the more likely you are to accept evolution. In addition, the Christian clergy are much more pro-evolution than pro-creation as a whole. It has been affirmed by clergy, and both religious and non-religious scientists alike, that God and evolution are compatible....

Dear One Despite The Lies Of The Faithless Religious And Irreligious Alike

If You Believe This To Be The Gospel Truth

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:31

Then Why Would A Rational Fellow Like Yourself Trade In The Living God Of The Bible

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

For That Soon To Be Gone godlet Of Evolution

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. Isaiah 45:9-12

~

Believe

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; Isaiah 44:24-25

In The LORD Jesus Of The Holy Bible

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:10-12

And Be Blessed Beloved

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

Love, Joe

~

Core Truth In Plan English

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions immutable.

This Book contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy.

It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter.

Christ is its subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end.

It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet.

Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.

It is given to you in life, will be open in the judgement, and be remembered forever.

It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifle with its holy precepts.

From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament

[~candice~]

OK, here is the thread for the off-topic discussion D-9 and I were having about salvational doctrine and the nature of death.

[Guest]

What makes you think that evolution is triggered by throwing fishes onto beaches, or that fishes are supposed to evolve into monkeys....

Creationism. America is definitely fertile ground for the creationist movement, the citizens aren't scientifically literate enough to sift through and pick out the rubbish [which is pretty much the entire movement].

:24:

Do I Hear The Lonesome Sound Of Water Drip Drip Dripping Upon A Rock

Hoping For Some Cabbage Patch Baby To Claw Up

And Evolve Into Unbelief

And Perdition

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

There Is Something About Wisdom

That Self-Proported Great Men Of Science Often Seem To Miss

And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle.

And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.

And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. Exodus 33:8-10

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[nebula]

I was asked for speciation, and that's what I gave.

You are arguing against people who regard tigers and wolves as "species", not "families" or "genus"'s.

And using scientific "speciation" to prove " "familiation" is a huge step to make.

I wouldn't be surprised if scientists have documented evolution at the genus level or higher in the past 50 years or so, but I hardly see the point in digging around finding it;

It would be a stronger argument.

But note that "I wouldn't be surprised if..." is not credible evidence.

the creationist concept of kind is usually denoted around at the family level anyway (sometimes lower, sometimes higher), so genus to genus is usually still 'micro' evolution to the creationist and perfectly valid (according to the creationist concept of "hyper evolution" such evolution is necessary). Plus even if I showed you family to family, you can just come right back with, 'the taxonomic system is a human invention and doesn't accurately denote the reality of "kinds"'. And that would be somewhat of a valid point (albeit switching the goal post, which is what your post is from the get go). Modern taxonomy is a human classification system that has little to no biological significance beyond genus. IOW the taxonomic system, although done systematically, is arbitrary.

The bottom line I hear in this: you are making a claim without evidence that "familiation" has taken place. (And yes, I invented the word as a means to describe the thought process - now you can berate me for not describing things accurately, or you can try to envision the train of thought and actually rebut with a convincing argument that branches from that train of thought.)

There is no reason, assuming God created the kinds and let each kind 'micro' evolve into the all the species we have today, to assume that our human taxonomic system correlates with the reality of kinds (again assuming the kind paradigm is in fact reality), especially since taxonomy works perfectly under the evolution paradigm - evolution actually explains some of the features of taxonomy like its least to most inclusion of characteristics from domain to species.

Our modern taxonomy is melded to the evolution lens such that they have become one and the same. Thus your human system in itself has become one of your sacred cows, so to speak. Thus, while you admit the "humanness" of it, you treat it as if it is fact.

But if you look at some of the major transitions, like reptile to mammal (above the family level), scientists can show the sequence of fossils showing the transition. Or the evolution of whales and so on, all above the family level. And with genetics we can show that chimps and humans have a common ancestor, which kind of shatters the creationist paradigm on the spot.

Give one piece of evidence to 10 scientists, and you can end up with 10 different interpretations to that evidence.

While you who believe in evolution can take two kinds of animals with numerous trait differences - anatomical and physiological - and trace a few fossils that show a few of those anatomical traits that appear to be crossing over, so to speak - and be convinced that evolution took place - even though you cannot trace the physiological changes apart from "out of the blue" anatomy changes (which does not trace how the physiology changed and how the mutations altered both anatomy and physiology at the same time);

a person who is critically analytical of evolution looks at the jumps in the fossil record between an animal with traits A, B, C, F, G, M, O, P, R, X, Y, Z and an animal with traits A, B, D, F, G, H, I, P,R, X, Y, Z and note how these occur in different layers of time in the fossil record, note how there are dramatic changes from one layer to the other - that there is no melding of geological layers but that there are distinct layers - and interpret the fossils accordingly. That is, just as there is no melding of geological layers (like the colors of the rainbow do), but that each layer has a distinct start and stop point - so do the living creatures. No melding.

I mean seriously, what is to stop you from saying, 'okay you've showed us family to family, now show us kingdom to kingdom direct observation'?

How about you actually not jump the gun and simply deal with the fact that it is impossible to observe family to family transitioning taking place. Such would require passing through whatever causes a geological layer to change, would it not?

There becomes a point where we simply don't have human records back far enough to record these transitions. We have good written records going back what, a few thousand years, and we didn't even have science a few hundred years ago. Meanwhile evolution of the family level is usually talked in the time scale of millions of years which can only be inferred from things like the fossil record and genetics.

What you cannot seem to understand is how many assumptions are added into the interpretation mix.

[nebula]

There are many forms of creationism, some accept an old earth and reject the 6-day doctrine. The main characteristic of creationism is the rejection of evolution in favor of the doctrine that God made all the animals in their present form (some allowing 'micro' evolution or evolution within kinds). I know you reject evolution, and as a professed Christian I cannot think of anything else you would or could be other than a creationist.

The overall message that I've gotten from Worthy is that it is nearly impossible to be a Christian and accept evolution, because by accepting evolution you must reject at least parts of God's Word and therefore you're not a true believer. There's some provisions thrown in, like the idea that a Christian is just ignorant of evolution and/or Christianity so they don't know any better - either they're new to the faith or they've never been exposed to the truth of evolution and whatnot. But that's hardly saying that they are compatible - the only reason why a Christian would accept evolution is because they're ignorant of the subject or they don't want to believe the truth etc.

You say that status hinges on a confession of faith, yet that confession of faith must be supported by your doctrine and paradigmatic approach to things like the Bible and how the universe works so that it is aligned closely with that of those who run Worthy. If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of members on Worthy are very conservative theologically, and if your theology isn't conservative you better watch out.

I've been thinking about your complaint here D-9.

Candice started a new thread "A discussion on doctrine and creationism". Will you be willing to interact in there, to defend how you can make sense of "man being made in the image of God", about the human spirit, about God's relation to man, and about what redemption is and why it is needed, in light of evolution?

Perhaps that can clarify things.

[nebula]

Here is an example of what I mean about interpreting evidence:

Why Dogs Don't Need Snow Boots

The evolutionist will automatically see the amazement of evolution while the creationist automatically will see design.

[MorningGlory]

Well, it isn't my fault that the majority of creationists know less than nothing about evolution, and don't know that much about science in general. What I find interesting is that, generally speaking, the more education you have the more likely you are to accept evolution; and the more you understand about evolution the more likely you are to accept evolution. In addition, the Christian clergy are much more pro-evolution than pro-creation as a whole. It has been affirmed by clergy, and both religious and non-religious scientists alike, that God and evolution are compatible. Are the 12,000+ clergy that signed thatClergy Letter Project all non-sound Christians?

Aren't you still just a student? Lots of creationists have college degrees (such as myself) and still don't buy the theory. Which, btw, is a cake that is unproven regardless of how you ice it.

*edited by Candice

Edited February 3, 2012 by ~candice~

[Guest]

One

And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, Job 28(a)

And Two

and to depart from evil is understanding. Job 28(b)

Makes One Healthy And Wise Too

Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. Proverbs 3:7-8

~

I am only going to deal with this part of your post because basically, all the rest of what you said is "you are uneducated and that is why you do not accept evolution and you are too stupid to understand it anyway." I am highly educated. I do not accept evolution because it is bogus. But thanks for the gentle hint that I am a low-grade moron because I don't accept evolution....

Some creationists are highly educated, my dad used to work with PhD pharmacologist (from an accredited university) that was a 6-day creationist, and I've debated creationists with PhDs in science. However it doesn't change the fact that your understanding of science is less than someone who has completed a 101 science course in a main-stream university, same with evolution for biology 101. While I was harsh on your understanding, I felt I also provided some education when correcting some of your statements. It's not my fault that you simply don't understand what a theory means in science....

Education?

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

Quibble And Snort As One May

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isaiah 45:9

It Still Will Not Change The Facts Of Life

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:24-31

For Jesus Is The LORD God Creator Of All, You See

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:9-14

And He Will Be The Captain Of Your Soul

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:6-11

If You Would But Believe

~

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[nebula]

You are arguing against people who regard tigers and wolves as "species", not "families" or "genus"'s.

My mistake, I didn't know that we were completely throwing out taxonomy here.

Ask the ones who asked for the evidence of species changing.

I knew what they meant.

Why can't you? And why can't you work with their understanding?

Seriously, if we're not even going to somewhat loosely use taxonomy here why even bring it up?

I was trying to connect the train of thought with the ones posing the question and the answer you gave.

It would be a stronger argument.

But note that "I wouldn't be surprised if..." is not credible evidence.

Well sure, I just don't see the point in wasting my time looking for something when I know you'll just move the goal post anyway, not to mention I never made the claim to begin with.

Then why are you "wasting time" even discussing anything in here?

Besides, according to your statement about tigers and wolves you already accept family to family evolution anyway, there's nothing for me to show you that you don't already accept, see(?)

I fail to follow your train of thought. How did I accept anything?

Not to mention I never mentioned anything other than speciation, which I took to meant the scientific definition of speciation, ya know - a species evolving into one or more different biological species. This family thing being directly observable is something you've imposed on me that I've never stated or implied.

Again, I was trying to present how the questioner and the responder were not on the same page with what each said. Until your respond to what they mean by what they ask, you will never get past their question.

And thus, wasting your time.

The bottom line I hear in this: you are making a claim without evidence that "familiation" has taken place. (And yes, I invented the word as a means to describe the thought process - now you can berate me for not describing things accurately, or you can try to envision the train of thought and actually rebut with a convincing argument that branches from that train of thought.)

I don't mind making up words, if it is actually appropriate to the conversation, and in the case of a scientific discussion it's clearly specified what is meant and such. I don't know what you mean by "without evidence", is not paleontology and genetics evidence or at least data regarding the past? But anyways, I can do better than "familiation", whatever it means (assuming it is grounded in modern science), by saying that the fact that every living thing uses DNA is evidence that all life had a common ancestor (with the exception of some peripheral microorganisms).

DNA can just as easily evidence a common Creator. Why would God create different source codes for different organisms? Planetary life couldn't function if everything had different source codes.

And how well does Evolutionary Theory explain the jumps seen across geological strata?

The way I understand taxonomy, it is essentially a way to organize data/facts into a systematic database, and that organization of data lends credence to evolutionary theory;

It lends credence because, as I mentioned, they melded it to fit evolution.

You can trace the changes to the system made before genetic evolutionary lines were decided and those after.