Mutations do not produce real change

[nebula]

I'm not sure what you mean by changing anatomy and physiology at the same time is a problem; one of the motifs of biology is that form=function - if the morphology changes you're likely to get a physiological change, the two are interconnected.

Physiological changes require cellular changes, hormonal changes, cell receptor changes, etc. There's a lot of nit-picky details that go into physiology.

Have you learned how complicated blood pressure regulation is? How many organs are involved? How many hormones? How many neural sensors there are? Etc?

Or have you learned how complicated the conduction of a nerve impulse is? Or muscle contraction?

How do you envision these as simple morphological changes where the physiology automatically follows?

What you cannot seem to understand is how many assumptions are added into the interpretation mix.

Like what?

How come there are dramatic changes in the kinds of life seen between fossil layers? Why can there not be seen gradual changes between these geological layers?

[nebula]

The evolutionist will automatically see the amazement of evolution while the creationist automatically will see design.

So God is concerned for dogs traveling in the snow but left us humans out in the cold? Pun intended.

By what principle do you delegate that God should have made our bodies naturally suitable to colder environments?

[Guest]

The evolutionist will automatically see the amazement of evolution while the creationist automatically will see design.

So God is concerned for dogs traveling in the snow but left us humans out in the cold? Pun intended.

Complain

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalms 139:14

Complain

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11

Complain

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

Complain

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

~

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[nebula]

By what principle do you delegate that God should have made our bodies naturally suitable to colder environments?

Because by your argument he did it for dogs, humans live in cold climates too.

Why not give humans wings or gills? Why not make us 10 feet tall?

Really Stargaze, you are making arguments like a grade schooler looking for one-up-manship. Is this your reason for dialoguing here?

[Guest]

.... And no, you do not get the option of defining what a Christian is. The Bible does that according to it's own internal doctrine. Someone who advocates Gay clergy and Gay marriage is outside the pale of Christianity, no matter what they say because homosexuality is biblically forbidden. Christian doctrine, is by it's very nature, since it is based solely on the Bible, which does not change, conservative in nature. Any liberal denomination that accepts homosexuality is in error, according to the Bible, on which all Christian doctrine is supposed to be based....

I'm not defining what a Christian is. I'm simply using the standard definition. You know, the standard one that says approximately 2 billion adherents and the one used by those who study religion. My point was that you can make Christianity say literally anything you want if you only focus on one sliver of the spectrum, like the ultra right or the ultra left, however neither is indicative of the whole....

Well Dear One

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Your Teacher's Words Are Redefining Who Jesus Is

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

And They Are Changing The Meanings Of Only Book That Is True

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:3-6

By Matching It To The Mockings And The Scornings Of The Unbelieving World

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. Luke 8:52-53

And Although You May Think To Share New Knowledge

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident. Proverbs 14:15-16

It Is Really Just The Echo Of The Voice

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c)

Of The lord of The Liars

~

Trust Your Heart To The Man From Galilee

And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.

And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? Mark 4:37-41

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Valoran]

Here is an example of what I mean about interpreting evidence:

Why Dogs Don't Need Snow Boots

The evolutionist will automatically see the amazement of evolution while the creationist automatically will see design.

nebula, it's easy to pick out single pieces of evidence and argue that one can interpret it multiple ways. Unfortunately, it's also dishonest because the modern evolutionary synthesis isn't founded on isolated bits of evidence like dogs' paws, it's a cohesive theory that unifies a wide range of evidence offered by paleontology to mathematics to genetics.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

Can you explain to us how can we possibly interpret the entire set of evidence available to us today in order to fit creationism?

[MorningGlory]

Fossil evidence is the weakest evidence for common descent, as a matter of fact if we didn't have any fossils, we would still be able to determine that we share common ancestry with other primates.

Would you mind posting the evidence behind your statement?

[MorningGlory]

Would you mind posting the evidence behind your statement?

You mean will I post it again? Sure.

My post here includes two pieces of evidence:

A third one would be endogenous retroviruses. How does creationism explain the fact that humans and chimpanzees share some ERVs in their genome?

http://www.evolution...el.com/ervs.htm

Thanks for posting this. I don't have time to read all posts here so I must have missed these.

The reasoning behind the appearance of shared ancestry between humans and other primates is simple; we DO share a common beginning. God is the Creator and, with economy that is to be expected of Him, simply used the same genetic blueprint for different species and tweaked them as He saw fit. Nothing hard to understand there. Btw, He is not 'desperate' for us to reject common ancestry with animals; the Bible never mentions any such thing but, rather, tells us we all share a Creator.

[MorningGlory]

Thanks for posting this. I don't have time to read all posts here so I must have missed these.

The reasoning behind the appearance of shared ancestry between humans and other primates is simple; we DO share a common beginning. God is the Creator and, with economy that is to be expected of Him, simply used the same genetic blueprint for different species and tweaked them as He saw fit. Nothing hard to understand there. Btw, He is not 'desperate' for us to reject common ancestry with animals; the Bible never mentions any such thing but, rather, tells us we all share a Creator.

Sure no problem. I guess the main rebuttal to your response is that these genetic markers [as i call them] aren't common to everything. We specifically share certain genetic markers with other primates. It's also not just that these markers exist at all it's that they exist in the same exact locations. Occams Razor would tell us that it's more reasonable to conclude that we share a common ancestor than it is to conclude that we were created with these similarities but we're not related at all.

I understand that the genetic markers are not common to all organisms; the Lord simply made X number of blueprints and used each of them more than once. To me, it's crystal clear. God can't lie.....and He hasn't tried. Bottom line is this though; regardless of which theory or belief we embrace.....we cannot comprehend the mind of God and we will know for sure when He decides it's time.

[Valoran]

I understand that the genetic markers are not common to all organisms; the Lord simply made X number of blueprints and used each of them more than once. To me, it's crystal clear. God can't lie.....and He hasn't tried. Bottom line is this though; regardless of which theory or belief we embrace.....we cannot comprehend the mind of God and we will know for sure when He decides it's time.

It's remarkable how we can see predictable patterns in how God uses those blueprints then. Apparently God started off with the most basic and rudimentary blueprints for early prokaryotes, modified his blueprints bit by bit over thousands of millions of years, gradually killed off his early blueprints as he ever-so-slowly introduced more and more complex ones, branching them off into various kingdoms and phylums and families according to an order that is completely different from what Gen 1 of the Bible tells us, whereas at the onset of modern science where we actually have knowledge about genetics and the principles of Mendelian heredity and the ability to actually measure changes in organisms, God abruptly ceased his interfering and let nature take its course so that His hand cannot be detected and recorded by science.

It's really remarkable how creationists invariably falls back on "we can't understand God!" to excuse facts that punch holes all over their nonsensical, baseless speculations. I've never really understood how the creationist can bear to live with the shame of such intellectual dishonesty, or if they feel any shame at all... but that's just me.