Current Traditions Based on Past Racism

[OnetrueGod]

I just don't know if I could agree that the "tradition" of not practicing open and overt methods of praise is based on a racist ban originally intended to keep people of color out of "white" churches. Especially considering that I have seen more than one "white" church that does and always has routinely clapped, shouted, and raised hands. I was a teen in the 80's and attended an all white church that "shouted the roof down" every service. And this was in the heart of the South in Mississippi. Then again, I was born after the years of true segregation and the civil rights struggles. I just know what my experience is. And ultimately, I'm not sure it really matters how, when or where our current traditions got their start. Times and people change. December 25th may have once been a Pagan holiday, but somewhere along the way it was co-opted by Christians as the date to celebrate the birth of Jesus. None of us thinks it was His actual date of birth. Most of us now know the season's original origins. But we don't observe the traditions of Christmas because of their pagan origins. We do so because it's the traditional time when Christians celebrate Christ's birth. I think the whole clapping or not thing is less about racism - especially today - than about the man-created divisions between different denominations. Of course, one of those "shouting" churches I attended was Pentecostal and the other one is Southern Baptist. Basically, it really just varies from one individual church to the next. There are huge variances even within individual denominations.

Excellent points! I realize that there were white congregations that were hand clapping and shouting all along. the charismatic and pentecostal movements especially. Today, many of the churches that banned it in the 60's practice hand clapping and shouting to some degree today. I am hoping this is because they saw through this thin veil of racist garbage soon after. But I can assure you that in the 60's and early 70's this ban had its roots in the racial segregation of it's time and unfortunately this tradition is carried forward to today in some areas and denominations.

Just as you pointed out, some "pagan" or "bad" traditions can be turned to good, but I see no good in a tradition that discourages people from attending by condemning someone's cultural worship differences. I talked with some church leaders from a congregation in Huntsville, Alabama who were one of the first churches to integrate in the 70's. They made the decision to allow hand clapping, hand raising, and shouting because they knew that if they were to truly welcome blacks from their community, they had to respect their cultural differences as well. This all white congregation had a ban on such things prior to this move and nearly a third of the congregation left as a result when blacks began attending and clapping. Today the congregation is 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 other races (Hispanic, Asian, etc...)

Again, it matters not to me whether a church practices hand clapping etc... or not. But when a church condemns others and openly rejects the cultural difference of different ethnic groups. How can this be inviting others to share in the love of Christ?

[mizzdy]

so jeremiah 31 wasnt fulfilled? the law is written in mens hearts?

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

hmm i think that this occurs when men come to christ.

and uh jesus said only a few things new. the verses on loving thy enemies were already in the torah. he was dealing with the perversion of the torah not some novel idea.

We certainly are in that process of having all of His Torah written on our hearts but it will not be completely fulfilled until He returns since we read that part of this 'new' or renewed covenant is that no more will man teach man but all will learn directly from Him, that all will know Him. That has not yet happened we are all still trying to teach one another, not everyone knows Him, they might know of Him but they do not really know Him. When we come to Him He gives us His Spirit to learn and grow but oh what a more wonderful way to know than by the very words that come from His mouth as we sit at His feet listening to Him!

[jasoncran]

so jeremiah 31 wasnt fulfilled? the law is written in mens hearts?

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

hmm i think that this occurs when men come to christ.

and uh jesus said only a few things new. the verses on loving thy enemies were already in the torah. he was dealing with the perversion of the torah not some novel idea.

We certainly are in that process of having all of His Torah written on our hearts but it will not be completely fulfilled until He returns since we read that part of this 'new' or renewed covenant is that no more will man teach man but all will learn directly from Him, that all will know Him. That has not yet happened we are all still trying to teach one another, not everyone knows Him, they might know of Him but they do not really know Him. When we come to Him He gives us His Spirit to learn and grow but oh what a more wonderful way to know than by the very words that come from His mouth as we sit at His feet listening to Him!

odd the bible says that has been fulfilled, so you dont the LORD when he speaks? sure we dont know him as we havent fully transformed per the ever debated rapture verses. but that doesnt mean we cant hear him.

[mizzdy]

so jeremiah 31 wasnt fulfilled? the law is written in mens hearts?

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

hmm i think that this occurs when men come to christ.

and uh jesus said only a few things new. the verses on loving thy enemies were already in the torah. he was dealing with the perversion of the torah not some novel idea.

We certainly are in that process of having all of His Torah written on our hearts but it will not be completely fulfilled until He returns since we read that part of this 'new' or renewed covenant is that no more will man teach man but all will learn directly from Him, that all will know Him. That has not yet happened we are all still trying to teach one another, not everyone knows Him, they might know of Him but they do not really know Him. When we come to Him He gives us His Spirit to learn and grow but oh what a more wonderful way to know than by the very words that come from His mouth as we sit at His feet listening to Him!

odd the bible says that has been fulfilled, so you dont the LORD when he speaks? sure we dont know him as we havent fully transformed per the ever debated rapture verses. but that doesnt mean we cant hear him.

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever."

The sea, the light, the ordinances are still here, the renewed covenant was set in His blood yet it is not completely fulfilled, in some ways we can see it as the 'down payment'. I dont see any where in scriptures where this covenant is completely fulfilled, Messiah didnt nail His Torah to the cross did He? nor is He here right now reigning over this earth for a thousand years. Well according to many He did I just do not nor will I ever see it that way, God is the same always, why would He do away with His instructions, He took them and is setting them on our hearts instead of tablets of stone.

[joi]

I respectfully disagree with the op. I read it and immediately disliked what was said.

To begin with there are many different races who post here, and it is a fact that not all races worship alike,

with each of them being free to worship as they please.

To say all white people are prejudiced based on old traditions is also not fair, IMO. Actually you do not know

the race of most of us. It is fair to say that you personally were brought up with prejudice.

This is my only comment in this thread, so please do not try and pick what I said apart, because I shall not answer.

You have your opinions and I mine.

[jasoncran]

so jeremiah 31 wasnt fulfilled? the law is written in mens hearts?

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

hmm i think that this occurs when men come to christ.

and uh jesus said only a few things new. the verses on loving thy enemies were already in the torah. he was dealing with the perversion of the torah not some novel idea.

We certainly are in that process of having all of His Torah written on our hearts but it will not be completely fulfilled until He returns since we read that part of this 'new' or renewed covenant is that no more will man teach man but all will learn directly from Him, that all will know Him. That has not yet happened we are all still trying to teach one another, not everyone knows Him, they might know of Him but they do not really know Him. When we come to Him He gives us His Spirit to learn and grow but oh what a more wonderful way to know than by the very words that come from His mouth as we sit at His feet listening to Him!

odd the bible says that has been fulfilled, so you dont the LORD when he speaks? sure we dont know him as we havent fully transformed per the ever debated rapture verses. but that doesnt mean we cant hear him.

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever."

The sea, the light, the ordinances are still here, the renewed covenant was set in His blood yet it is not completely fulfilled, in some ways we can see it as the 'down payment'. I dont see any where in scriptures where this covenant is completely fulfilled, Messiah didnt nail His Torah to the cross did He? nor is He here right now reigning over this earth for a thousand years. Well according to many He did I just do not nor will I ever see it that way, God is the same always, why would He do away with His instructions, He took them and is setting them on our hearts instead of tablets of stone.

so why would he then send the messiah to do the cross and set up the feasts that all point to him?

isnt jesus our shabat? he is indeed. the shabat only applies to the hebrews(and really not even abraham as he didnt sign that so to speak nor the hebrews ere the exodus). is jesus our passover? yes he is

is the holy spirit symobolic of the feast of pentacost? yes He is.

even the jews of today from the sages say the torah will be done away with if i recall

[OnetrueGod]

I respectfully disagree with the op. I read it and immediately disliked what was said.

To begin with there are many different races who post here, and it is a fact that not all races worship alike,

with each of them being free to worship as they please.

To say all white people are prejudiced based on old traditions is also not fair, IMO. Actually you do not know

the race of most of us. It is fair to say that you personally were brought up with prejudice.

This is my only comment in this thread, so please do not try and pick what I said apart, because I shall not answer.

You have your opinions and I mine.

Joi, I'm sorry you disagree with my post (although I'm a bit puzzled as to why). I totally agree with your summation that not all races worship alike and certainly agree that each of them should be free to worship as they please. I thought I was clear that I did not agree with the racism... so please forgive me as i obviously did not make that clear to you. As far as I can tell from your comments, your opinion is my opinion.

I did not say nor am I insinuating that all white people are racist, nor even insinuating that people who follow old traditions are racists.

My point was this... we should try and understand why we blindly follow traditions and make an effort to know when and why they were started and why we continue to follow them. It is not the traditions I object to, it is the condemning of others who practice different traditions, especially those based on different cultures. I believe to condemn others based on race, nationality, language, or cultural worship differences in wrong. We should be respectful of our cultural differences.

I beg your forgiveness Joi, as i obviously offended you.

[mizzdy]

so jeremiah 31 wasnt fulfilled? the law is written in mens hearts?

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

hmm i think that this occurs when men come to christ.

and uh jesus said only a few things new. the verses on loving thy enemies were already in the torah. he was dealing with the perversion of the torah not some novel idea.

We certainly are in that process of having all of His Torah written on our hearts but it will not be completely fulfilled until He returns since we read that part of this 'new' or renewed covenant is that no more will man teach man but all will learn directly from Him, that all will know Him. That has not yet happened we are all still trying to teach one another, not everyone knows Him, they might know of Him but they do not really know Him. When we come to Him He gives us His Spirit to learn and grow but oh what a more wonderful way to know than by the very words that come from His mouth as we sit at His feet listening to Him!

odd the bible says that has been fulfilled, so you dont the LORD when he speaks? sure we dont know him as we havent fully transformed per the ever debated rapture verses. but that doesnt mean we cant hear him.

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever."

The sea, the light, the ordinances are still here, the renewed covenant was set in His blood yet it is not completely fulfilled, in some ways we can see it as the 'down payment'. I dont see any where in scriptures where this covenant is completely fulfilled, Messiah didnt nail His Torah to the cross did He? nor is He here right now reigning over this earth for a thousand years. Well according to many He did I just do not nor will I ever see it that way, God is the same always, why would He do away with His instructions, He took them and is setting them on our hearts instead of tablets of stone.

so why would he then send the messiah to do the cross and set up the feasts that all point to him?

isnt jesus our shabat? he is indeed. the shabat only applies to the hebrews(and really not even abraham as he didnt sign that so to speak nor the hebrews ere the exodus). is jesus our passover? yes he is

is the holy spirit symobolic of the feast of pentacost? yes He is.

even the jews of today from the sages say the torah will be done away with if i recall

No the 'sages' wrote that when the Messiah comes He will rightly interpret and walk it out for all to see, you will not find one rabbi, one sage that would even suggest that Torah will ever be done away with and if you have links to that please share since in all my years of reading I have never heard one rabbi, one Jewish person ever suggest that.

The Shabbat is a day, set aside, sure theres millions of people who say the Sabbath has been changed, done away with or that He is ours, I just dont happen to agree that the day has been done away with. I also do not agree that Shabbat applies to Hebrews, after all God calls us all into His kingdom, His ways, there is no division between Jew, Greek nor genitle, we are all His so that division set up by the rabbinical parties and roman isnt how I view things.

Passover is a day, the day the lambs were slaughtered and then eaten as the sun goes down into the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and yes we read He became that blood that covers us and brings us into the covenant. You seem to be stuck between wanting to learn rabbinical Judaism and christainity, the two do not mix well. I do not see the feasts as 'symbolic' in the way it seems you are presenting it. There is a much told story within Judaism that it was the Torah given at Sinia that also represents Shavuot and then we are told in the Tanakh where the Spirit of YHWH would be given to us as a permanate indwelling and that was given just as it was promised. I am not one to see brand spanking new things in the brit chadashah but fulfillments, things expanded on, and the mystery of how He would bring Israel back from a divorce as well as how the gentiles were grafted in.