The parent of all heresy

[pilgrim49]

samd

The Gospel of the Kingdom is the same as the Paul’s Gospel of Grace.

I agree with many of the things you said, but I do disagree with you on this comment. I have seen an entire false doctrine built on the notion that Jesus taught about the gospel of the Kingdom, and Paul taught the gospel of grace. That is absolutely false, and easy to refute. In Acts 28:30,31, it says of the Apostle Paul,

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus, Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Paul spoke of the Kingdom repeatedly.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 1 Corinthians 4:20

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? 1 Corinthians 6:9

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:10

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5

Who hath delievered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Colossians 1:13

And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellow workers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me. Colossians 4:11

That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

The only reason I am going to the trouble of posting all of these scriptures, and taking on this one comment is because I have heard a heretical teaching that tries to separate Jesus' Kingdom teachings from what Paul taught in order to create a weird eternal security spin off doctrine. This doctrine says that all the Word is for you, but not to you. While there is some degree of truth to this statement, they take it too far. These people claim that Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles, and we are only to give heed to his teachings. According to this doctrine, NT books written by James, Peter and John, are to Jewish believers, and only apply to them.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

Hi Butero

I think you are a mite confused about the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God usually speaks of God's universal kingdom, whereas the kingdom of heaven normally speaks of the kingdom of God coming to earth from heaven. Both are the kingdom of God.

In Acts 1:3 it is spoken of aa the kingdom of God, and immediately the desciples asked the Lord if He would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. They knew the what the Lord meant. After all He had just spent 40 days teaching them about it. The context determines which is meant; the universal or the Davidic kingdom that the disciples were asking about was the same as when it was preached "the kingdom of heaven is at hand."ds

As to your remarks about the different gospels, Paul's gospel was different than that of the twelve's gospel of the kingdom as shown in Gal. 2:2-9. Almost without exception people refuse or completely ignore Paul's statement three times that his gospel was a mystery until he was sent to Jerusalem as above and explained it to the other apostles who were still preaching the same gospel of the kingdom that they did before the cross.

And no, I am not saying there are two ways of being saved.

Do you believe Paul's claim that his gospel was a mystery?

I will include one where that claim was made.

Paul says the mystery of his gospel in this dispensation was: “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). Another mystery was that the Gentiles would be accepted in the same body of believers as co-equals of the Jews and that, completely apart from the Jewish ceremonial religion, the temple, and the kingdom message; a new dispensation (Eph. 3:2).

No less than three times Paul spoke of that “mystery,” as, “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim. 2:8), which means the present body and bride of Christ, a mixture of both Jews and Gentiles with equal access to God was unknown before being unveiled to him. By the very fact that Paul boldly spoke of the message he preached as “his gospel” to the unbiased, should separate his gospel as different from all those who preceded him. The other apostles never spoke of the gospel they preached as their gospel.

That explains why the apostles before him were ignorant about the present assembly of Christ, and especially so by the whole episode between Peter and Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. When Peter came to the house of Cornelius, one of the first things he said was, as a Jew he was not supposed to be in the company of a Gentile (Acts 10:28). Cornelius even had to explain to him why he was there (Acts 10: 29). After Cornelius explained his vision, Peter said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.”

That sounds strange for someone who had supposedly just established a church to be made up of people without distinction from all nations on the Day of Pentecost. The apostle Paul speaking of the church said: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28).

Furthermore, The disciples as the Lord said (Matt. 13:11, 16; Mk. 4:11; Lk. 8:10), understood the things concerning the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but didn’t know anything about the present church as indicated in at least the first twelve chapters of the book of Acts. If that is correct, as well as what Paul stated about the church being a mystery, then the obvious truth is that there was no knowledge of the present church such as Paul describe it (Eph. 3:2-6; Gal. 3:28), nor did it exist, until it was revealed to, and founded by him.

In truth, the only apostle in this dispensation who was rightly entitled to say “my gospel,” was the apostle Paul. When Paul spoke of “my gospel,” it is understood that “his gospel” was received directly from the Lord and in some way different from anything previous. “For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12).

In his benediction (Rom. 16:25), Paul said, “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began.”

In Paul’s words, three things are mentioned together in context to form an incontrovertible statement of fact.

1. He says, “my gospel.”

2. “a revelation.”

3. “a mystery kept secret since the world began.”

When Paul says “my gospel” was what was hidden since the world began, he did not include the apostles before him and say, “our gospel,” or “the gospel.” He further identifies it as a different gospel than the original apostles in Gal. 2:2 when he was sent up to Jerusalem by revelation and communicated to them “that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles.” He clearly distinguished his gospel to the Gentiles as something they were ignorant of, and being different from that which he and they were preaching to the Jews. That was the second offer of the kingdom from Matt. 10:16-18; 22:4-7 and was precisely what Peter was given the keys to open in Matt. 16:19 which he used in Acts 2:14-39, and especially so in 3:19-24.

Besides the above passage from Romans, in Eph. 3:4-5 Paul explicitly speaks of,

...my knowledge in the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, but has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophet.

And that revelation to the holy apostles and prophets was approximately 14 years after his conversion (Gal. 1:17-19; 2:1-2) when he was sent through revelation by Holy Spirit to explain his gospel to them (Gal. 2:2). He did not speak of our knowledge, but my knowledge, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men.

Why would God send Paul on a special journey to Jerusalem to explain to the apostles something they already knew? Paul wasn’t sent because any deficiency in his understanding (Gal. 2:6). It was their understanding of his gospel that the Lord had personally revealed to him that needed to be brought up to date.

Grace to you Butero

pilgrim

Edited March 3, 2012 by pilgrim49

[Zemke]

Okay so in trying to form a question in the understanding that God desires the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives How would having this information further the cause of edification in the body?

It seems to me Paul was submitting his revelation in accountability, "to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain." Gal 2:2

Even if your point is spot on, which I'm having problems with, What is the applicable essence of it? What is the point? Does it edify?

[pilgrim49]

As to getting back to the apostles teaching, that depends. The twelve were yet offering the restoration of Israel's Davidic Kingdom. With the exception of Peter's opening the doors to the kingdom of heaven to the household of Corneilus, (Matt. 16:19) the twelve's ministry was to the Jews only (Gal. 2:2-9).

As their ministry being to the Jews only, they wrote no epistles to the Gentiles. That was Paul's ministry as shown in Galatians above. Paul said 3 times that his gospel was a mystery in past ages before being revealed to and preached by him to the Gentiles.

Peter's preaching to the household of Cornelius was not a unique exception.

The NT shows that the epistles were circulated among the churches and applied to all the churches.

There is no dichotomy in the NT between epistles to Christian Gentiles and epistles to Christian Jews.

Peter's letters were addressed to Jewish and Gentile Christians scattered thoughout Asia minor,

and he was very familiar with all Paul's epistles to the Gentiles.

2 Pe 3:15-16 - "Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters (Peter was familiar with them all), speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures (Peter equates Paul's letters with Scripture), to their own destruction."

John's letters were addressed to no one in particular because they were circular letters.

Nor do Jude's letters given any indication they were to Jewish Christians only.

There is no warrant in the Word of God for a dichotomy of the epistles.

They all belong to all Christians, Jew and Gentile alike.

The apostle distinctly states that the gospel he preached was given to him by special revelation and unknown before by anyone (Eph. 3:2 3), including the other apostles, who were yet preaching the gospel (offering) of the kingdom started by John the Baptist, the Lord, than the twelve. In v. 4, he identifies that gospel as “my knowledge.” For that reason he named it three times as “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16; 2 Tim. 2:8), and in Rom. 16:25 he identifies “his gospel,” as “a mystery kept secret since the world began.” Paul was sent by revelation (Gal. 2:2) to Jerusalem to explain his gospel to the apostles before him. This whole dispensation of grace commonly known as the church was a mystery, completely hidden in past ages and generations (Rom. 16:25 26; Eph. 3:5,9; Col. 1:26).

Nowhere in the Word of God do we find "dispensation of grace."

What we find is Paul showing in Gal 3:6-8 that salvation has been by faith (grace) since Abraham (Ge 15:6).

I am not saying the twelve taught nothing usable by the present church, only when reading their epistles we must apply what belongs to us and what belongs to Israel and the earthly kingdom they were offering.

In His grace

pilgrim1

It all belongs to all believers in Christ Jesus.

We have no Biblical warrrant for such a dichotomy in the Word of God.

And the kingdom Jesus offered was not physical, but spiritual.

The kingdom of God is within you. It is invisible. (Lk 17:20-21)

Jesus rejected the earthly kingdom of their hopes (Jn 6:15).

The apostles did not offer an earthly kingdom. They offered the same kingdom Jesus offered, a spiritual kingdom, invisible and within you.

So much of what is here has no warrant in the Word of God.

Did you get this from the Word of God, or from somewhere else?

P.S. I have also responded to you here.

I always get my belief's from the Word or God and if you noticed, I always quote from it.

Hi Eleanor.

“The Church is the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom promised to Israel. -- how does Ac 15:13-18 fit in?”

I don’t know how anything could be plainer. God is at present through the church taking out from among the Gentiles a people for His name. Afterwards He will rebuild David’s kingdom of Israel promised by all the prophets from the beginning of the world (Acts 3:21, 24). The same thing is seen in Rom. 11:25.

“The incorrect division of the Old and New Covenants. -- what do you think of bolded part of this on the relation of the Sinaitic covenant to the New Covenant?

The New Covenant (Testament) began with the Lord’s birth and earthly ministry. -- would that not be with his sacrifice?”

The Lord’s birth had nothing to do with the beginning of the New Covenant.

It was only hours before the Lord’s death before the New Covenant was ever mentioned during His ministry. When He passed the cup the Lord said to His disciples:

Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins (Matt. 26:27 28).

The same is repeated in Mk. 14:24; Lk. 22:20 and in both cases He speaks of that which is still future, i.e., His death.

In his letter to the Hebrews, Paul said:

...how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the New Covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives (Heb. 9:14 17).

Surely it is evident from all the above, without exception; all those who were living during and under the first covenant of the law was redeemed by His death. It included John the Baptist and the Lord’s disciples during His ministry, which until His death were yet under the Old Covenant of which time the Memoirs recorded. Not only were the Jews sins covered, but all sins forward from Adam, …

The Lord revealed the present Church during His earthly ministry. -- where do Jn 10:16, and the future building of Mt 16:18 fit it?

Your passage from John doesn’t tell us who He is speaking of. But He calls them sheep which He several times applies to Israel. Whereas, Paul says the church is the bride of Christ; quite a difference.

As to Matt. 16:18 being the church, we have been deceived for two millennia by the translation of the Greek “ekkleaia” to church. All the Greek word means is “assembly”. An assembly of anything; it’s a common word without any religious connotations. The Lord immediately identified the assembly he would build in v. 19 when He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven that they had been offering for 3 years. He simply was telling the disciples that though they would kill Him he would yet build the kingdom of David that they were offering because He would rise from the dead. Peter used those keys in opening the doors to the kingdom of heaven in acts 2 and 3 to Israel, and in ch. 10 to the Gentiles. The claim that Peter and a successor to open the doors to anyone beyond the above.

Shall we not believe Paul, to whom the present church and dispensation of grace was given and established, that the present assembly of Christ was a hidden mystery, unknown at the time the Lord spoke those words? Or shall we believe the church scholars past and present with whom these problems originated, and are still being defended? In Matthew the Greek “ekklesia” is used 3 times. In Acts and the entire New Testament documents it is found 112 times for a grand total of 115. In Acts 19:32, 39, 41 the same word “ekklesia” that everywhere else is translated “church,” is here correctly translated “assembly.”

In Acts 19 It is used three times to describe a mob of rioting Ephesian Gentiles who were afraid the preaching of Christ was going to destroy the lucrative silversmith business of making images for the worship of the goddess Diana. In opposition to Paul, Demetrius, a silversmith, called together an “ekklesia” (church), in an effort to stem the tide of defections to Paul’s teaching about Christ.

To show the nonsense of their translation, most if asked what the word church means, explain that it has a meaning of “called out ones” But how could that be a proper rendering of ekklesia?

If the word church, simply means the “called out ones,” then the word ekklesia, translated “church” is just as appropriate when applied to the Ephesian idol worshiping mob who would have killed Paul, as when it is used to identify the present assembly of Christ. Would we say the idol worshipers were the “called out ones?” It is a clear example of the absurdity that we have been taught by those referred to as scholars.

Therefore, the word in context and the teaching from other Scriptures must decide the issue. The use of the word “assembly,” translated “church” in Matthew chapters 16 and 18 cannot be other than the kingdom of heaven assembly which they had just offered to Israel that was so named 33 times by Matthew.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is the same as Paul’s Gospel of Grace. -- where does Lk 17:21 fit in?

The Lord’s words “the kingdom of God is within you” (Lk. 17:21), is often quoted as supposed proof that the kingdom promised to Israel is some kind of spiritual kingdom established on earth in the hearts of Christians. But that completely ignores the rest of the Lord’s statement, which shows exactly the opposite. When He said (v. 22) His disciples would “desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.” it was from the Messianic Kingdom passage in Dan. 7:13 14 where the title “Son of Man” originated:

I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.

Neither do the spiritualizers explain how the kingdom could be in the Pharisee’s who were trying to kill Him, and who the Lord called hypocrites and condemned as those who were fit for eternal damnation.

The kingdom was already in their midst (among them) in the person of the king, but in their blindness they knew it not. When the King does return with the kingdom, it will be as sudden as lightening. “For a the lightening flashes our of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day (Lk. 17:24).”

There is no reasonable way to evade the truth that the Lord was speaking here of the Messianic Kingdom of David coming to earth from heaven at a future time when He spoke of “the days of the Son of Man.” After the Lord’s rejection and only hours before His crucifixion, the Lord told the high priest (Matt. 26:64) that the kingdom of the Son of Man that Daniel spoke of in Dan. 7:13 14, though not then established, was yet to be realized on earth:

I say to you, that hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Eleanor, you say the church is David’s kingdom. Did anyone see the Lord’s coming when Peter offered the kingdom to Israel in Acts 3? Did every eye see Him (Rev. 1:7)? The Lord told John:

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

We have just seen some 70 years in communist Russia who’s official state proclamation was: “there is no God.” Some kingdom.

The 11 apostles of the Lord with Peter established the present church. -- Christ established (empowered) the NT church in Ac 2:1-11 for the purpose of his command in Mt 28:18-20.

You cannot prove that. The 12 apostles had nothing directly to do with the present church including its beginning. On the contrary, when Peter did visit a Gentile church, Paul had to reprimand him publicly for his inconsistent behavior (Gal. 2:11-14). The reason for Paul becoming an apostle to begin with was the 12’s ministry was offering the Davidic kingdom to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles (Matt. 28:19) as proselytes since that was the Jewish kingdom they had lost.

But Paul’s ministry was to the Gentiles where he offered salvation only in his gospel. Nowhere can it be shown that the Gospel of the Kingdom the Lord and the twelve preached was changed. The preaching of the 12 to the Gentiles (Matt. 28:19-20) would have been to make them proselytes (Ex. 12:48-49) but never progressed that far because of Israel’s rejection of the kingdom offer by Peter in Acts 2 and 3. The Jews will preach to the Gentiles after the rapture (Matt. 22:8-10; 24:14). The preaching to the Gentiles will probably by the 144.000 Jews in Rev. 7.

In spite of the claims of Rome, and Constantinople, Peter and the other original apostles were the apostles to the Jews (Gal. 2:7). That is not saying that the twelve did not ever preach forgiveness of sins to any Gentiles. But nowhere did any of the 12 establish a Gentile church, or write an epistle to one.

As shown above, the Lord’s command for them was to go to all nations as witnesses to preach repentance and forgiveness of sins (Lk. 24:47-48. But their primary message was the good news and offer of the kingdom to the Jews first, and eventually the making of Gentile proselytes who would be admitted into the commonwealth of Israel (Matt.16:19; 28:19-20), but the kingdom message or any other was to the Jew first (Acts 3:26).

The reason God called Paul years after the original apostles was, the second rejection of the kingdom offer by the Jews was a certainty which introduced through Paul a new mystery program commonly called “the dispensation of grace” (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2), to take out of the Gentiles a “people for His name” (Acts 15:14), and a bride for Christ (2 Cor. 11:2). Salvation in Christ started in Acts 2 in approximately 33 AD and the present church in AD 46-47 and Paul’s first missionary journey.

The Church began with the preaching of Peter on the Day of Pentecost. -- where does Ac 1:4-8 fit in?

In Matthew Chap.10 and 22 and Acts 1 and 3 it can easily be seen that Peter and the other disciples also preached the same Gospel of the Kingdom after the cross that they and Lord preached before the cross. The present church did not as we have been universally taught begin with Peter’s preaching on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

After the cross the disciples were still expecting the establishment of the kingdom of Israel that they and the Lord had been offering for 3 years before the cross. That is seen in Acts 1:3 when after teaching the disciples for 40 days about things concerning the kingdom they asked the Lord if He would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. In verse 6 He did not correct them, but simply told them, it was not for them to know when. If they were confused, that was the appropriate time to correct them, but we find no such thing.

The Church is the last dispensation ending with the final judgment and end of the world. --where does 2Th 1:6-10 fit in, where Paul locates the rapture (v.7) with the coming of Jesus in judgment (v.8)?

The judgments of the world begins just after the rapture. It is Daniel’s 70th. Week or the beginning of the Tribulation where all mankind will be sifted to determine who will be admitted into the kingdom as in the parables of the wheat and tares and sheep and goats.

There is no need for the church to be in the tribulation. We have already been judged in the Lord’s death that was in our place. Nowhere did Paul mention any judgment of the church in connected with the rapture?

Our works will be judged in heaven to determine out position and reward in the kingdom where we will reign with him (1Cor. 6:2-3). When the Lord comes at the Second Advent to judge the world Peter and Paul says:

In approximately AD 63 Peter wrote his first epistle in which he said to the remnant of Jews:

…gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1Pet.1:13).

Peter is not speaking of us being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but of the Lord being revealed to the world when He comes in judgment to establish the kingdom. Paul speaking of the same time tells Timothy that Christ will at His Second Advent, judge the living and dead on earth at “His appearing and His kingdom” (2 Tim. 4:1). But when speaking of Christ’s second coming (appearing) to earth to establish the kingdom that Peter spoke of, Paul told the Colossians: “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4; Italic’s added). That is one of the reasons Paul was careful to explain Christ’s coming for the church and calling them up to meet Him in the air; it’s altogether different event.

Here Paul makes it very clear that if we are with Him “when” Christ appears on earth, the rapture has already occurred. Moreover, Paul speaks of Christ judging the living and dead at His appearing and kingdom, but we are already judged in Christ when He was sacrificed in our place and we have been baptized into him who is alive forevermore.

Dear Eleanor, I hope I have answered your questions and shown the blessedness of being in Christ where no judgment can come because Paul says we have already been judged in Christ who is alive forevermore. Completely contrary to Rome’s teaching of the necessity of being saved by our faith plus works, Paul says “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4). We on God’s books are counted as dead and buried with Christ and raised with Him to eternal life because we are in Him.

May the Lord give you the grace to see the perfect salvation in Christ completely apart from the Commandments. Paul says the commandments were a ministry of condemnation and death (2Cor. 3).

Grace to you

pilgrim

[Guest yod]

PILGRIM: If the word church simply means the “called out ones,” then the word ekklesia, translated “church” is just as appropriate when applied to the Ephesian idol worshiping mob who would have killed Paul,

ELEANOR: By that same logic, we also get the absurdity that the word "believers" in the NT could also refer to the same Ephesian idol worshippers and, therefore, is an inappropriate word for believers in Jesus Christ.

No, those are different words so there is no linkage in their definition in any way.

A "believer" only means they put their trust into an object. That object in the context of talking about Jews/Christians of Newer Testament times was Yeshua, but there were "believers" in many other things, as is the case today.

The only meanings of "ekklesia" and "believer" that are relevant here are their meanings in the NT, which is what we are discussing here.

Do you agree that "ekklesia" is the faithful jewish remnant and those nations who were later joined to them?