Why I cringe when people say it is all about choice

[childeye]

I know that life is in me and given by God, but as far as saying I have the power in the form of a freewill is semantics since the term will is mor accurate. To think with my will it is my prerogative to obey and disobey God is not a power, it is vanity.

It isn't semantics. It is fact. You have been given the power to choose by God, yet you have made it a semantics game because somehow think that means the archaic word, 'vanity'.

It is semantics because the word free is a relative term. Without defining what we are free from it is incoherent in any cognitive reasoning.

You know what I hear people are actually describing when they say freewill? They are saying being alive and sentient. Choices are always being made simply because we are alive and must by necessity choose to be doing something at all times. So I'd ask the question; Why do bad things happen? freewill. Why do good things happen? freewill. Why do we love? freewill. Why do we not love? freewill. Why do we follow the flesh? freewill. Why do we follow the Spirit? freewill. Why do we disobey God? freewill. Why do we obey God? freewill. Why do we trust God? freewill. Why do we distrust God? freewill. Why do we Love God? freewill. Why do we not Love God? freewill. Why do we believe in God? freewill. Why do we not believe in God? freewill. It seems the the only thing in such reasoning that will preclude freewill is death. So I would ask the god of this world, why do we do evil? And god says, because you can? Why do we do good? because you can? Then why don't we do good? because you don't. Then why do we do evil? Because you do. Why did Jesus submit to die on a cross and say forgive them because they don't know what they do? UHHH???? Now freewill cannot answer this with a simple because he can. And this is the question that draws a me to seek God.

You seem to get it. Even Jesus came by His own free will. So what's the problem?

The problem Folatingaxe, is that to say because we are alive is why things happen does not address the questions. Jesus did not come down to die on a cross because he could, or because he is alive. There is a purpose he comes to accomplish.

[canuckamuck]

There is not one person who is alive, has lived, or will live, that does not sin outside of Christ Jesus. To say that one is incapable of sinning is very wrong and comes before a fall. Be careful of how much pride you have brother.

Was that admonition for me or for Childeye?

[Floatingaxe]

I know that life is in me and given by God, but as far as saying I have the power in the form of a freewill is semantics since the term will is mor accurate. To think with my will it is my prerogative to obey and disobey God is not a power, it is vanity.

It isn't semantics. It is fact. You have been given the power to choose by God, yet you have made it a semantics game because somehow think that means the archaic word, 'vanity'.

It is semantics because the word free is a relative term. Without defining what we are free from it is incoherent in any cognitive reasoning.

The word of God is very clear about what we are free from. That is not the discussion's topic. We have all been created with free will. You are making a federal case out of denying it, which is like denying you were born of a woman.

You seem to get it. Even Jesus came by His own free will. So what's the problem?

The problem Folatingaxe, is that to say because we are alive is why things happen does not address the questions. Jesus did not come down to die on a cross because he could, or because he is alive. There is a purpose he comes to accomplish.

Yes, Jesus came as a willing volunteer to pay the penalty for your and my sins.

[childeye]

This is a really great answer to my question, I understand it and it is correct in many aspects. However, I cannot say with the same confidence that I cannot sin. I find that I remain at warfare and I do fall down but when I stumble Grace picks me up and I start anew. As far as i can judge, this is also the experience of the mature Christians I know and respect.

It is because I put on the righteousness of Christ I am without sin; on my own I am unworthy. The spirit and the flesh remain rivals and the flesh is without conscience. It is a subtle thing when a conversation turns from news to gossip, or adrenalin causes words to be said in anger, and pride is always there to say "I have this right...".

I understand your sincere sentiments, and appreciate your response. There is no guile in your words, and it is clear you understand completely what I said. Your question at the outset in fact was a sword of Truth aimed directly at the very heart of the matter, and my intent was not to evade the implications and consequences of such a direct honesty. It would have been so much easier to say I am always a sinner, but then how will I ever learn to walk on water?

You speak about pride saying, "I have this right". I am not sure whether you mean an over confidence to claim to know what is true, or "I have the right" to do something. Could you please elaborate?

[childeye]

There is not one person who is alive, has lived, or will live, that does not sin outside of Christ Jesus. To say that one is incapable of sinning is very wrong and comes before a fall. Be careful of how much pride you have brother.

Was that admonition for me or for Childeye?

I believe this admonition is for me. My Loving brother does not wish to see me fall and it is wisdom to take his legitimate concerns to heart.

[childeye]

There is not one person who is alive, has lived, or will live, that does not sin outside of Christ Jesus. To say that one is incapable of sinning is very wrong and comes before a fall. Be careful of how much pride you have brother.

Thanks OneLight. Don't worry, I didn't claim to be incapable of sin. I just don't want to be trapped in this discussion limiting God's grace to not being able to make me capable of not sinning. It doesn't matter, the devil would have me fall in pride whether it is on the left or the right. The way I look at it, if there is a pride in me that is going to cause me to fall, let's get it over and done with. I want to see it and be corrected.

[childeye]

The word of God is very clear about what we are free from. That is not the discussion's topic. We have all been created with free will. You are making a federal case out of denying it, which is like denying you were born of a woman.

Since your definition of freewill is tantamount to being alive it is understandable why you say this. But there are others that go by a dictionary definition of the term. So please indulge me. According to the Word of God the term freewill means free from what?

Yes, Jesus came as a willing volunteer to pay the penalty for your and my sins.

Yes he was sent by God and he willingly came and died for our sins. But scripture says "For this reason the Christ was manifested, so that he might destroy the works of the devil". This leads to the question, How does paying for our sins destroy the works of the devil?

[Floatingaxe]

Since your definition of freewill is tantamount to being alive it is understandable why you say this. But there are others that go by a dictionary definition of the term. So please indulge me. According to the Word of God the term freewill means free from what?

The term you use, 'freewill', is an adjective and not a noun. The dictionary, however does have great definitions of 'free' and 'will'.

In Christ I am free from the addiction, or pull of sin, and the bondage of it.

Yes he was sent by God and he willingly came and died for our sins. But scripture says "For this reason the Christ was manifested, so that he might destroy the works of the devil". This leads to the question, How does paying for our sins destroy the works of the devil?

Do you really want to change the direction of this thread? Why is there a 'but' there? What I have said about Jesus' exercising His own free and sovereign will, and obeying His Father's will doesn't lend to your new question in any way. Jesus broke the chains of sin and death by breaking out of that tomb.

[Guest]

Yes he was sent by God and he willingly came and died for our sins. But scripture says "For this reason the Christ was manifested, so that he might destroy the works of the devil". This leads to the question, How does paying for our sins destroy the works of the devil?

~

The Devil You Say

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

And Death

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Be Gone

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Praise The Holy Name Of Jesus

[childeye]

The term you use, 'freewill', is an adjective and not a noun. The dictionary, however does have great definitions of 'free' and 'will'.

In Christ I am free from the addiction, or pull of sin, and the bondage of it.

I do not have any problem with the term freewill as an adjective, but rather the one that is a noun. The adjective would be equivalent to voluntary as in, I did this voluntarily. The freewill I am against is the theological premise that the will itself is always free to choose it's own moral direction. And this freewill is one that is in contradiction to the bible term of freewill that is defined by knowing the Truth or having the knowledge of God as in knowing Him personally. So when Jesus says the truth will set you free, he is implying that men are not free in their wills but slaves to sin, because they do not know God. Consequently the definition of freewill that says men are free to choose their moral direction at all times is a lie. You have properly defined the true freewill that is in Christ, not the false freewill enslaveded to sin, yet proclaiming itself free.

Yes he was sent by God and he willingly came and died for our sins. But scripture says "For this reason the Christ was manifested, so that he might destroy the works of the devil". This leads to the question, How does paying for our sins destroy the works of the devil?

Do you really want to change the direction of this thread? Why is there a 'but' there? What I have said about Jesus' exercising His own free and sovereign will, and obeying His Father's will doesn't lend to your new question in any way. Jesus broke the chains of sin and death by breaking out of that tomb.

You are right to say Jesus came of his own freewill seeing that he knew God personally and therefore would seek to do His Fathers will. But he would not seek to do God's will if Satan were his father, he would seek to do Satan's will. Of course Jesus could never be the son of Satan nor could he freely choose to be.

Hence I make a distinction between a will that is free or sovereign in choosing it's own moral direction, and one that is predisposed to choose to do according to who the spiritual father is, whether it be Satan or God. And since without the Truth we are by default servants to lies, so it is there exists the enslaved will.

And here Jesus agrees with me or rather I agree with him, for he says in John 8:38, I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father... And again in John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Consequently these scriptures speak directly against the freewill defined as the theological premise that the will itself is always free to choose it's own moral direction.