To obey or not to obey?

[gdemoss]

2nd Corin 10: 5

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

one of our tasks

Rom 14

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I believe if a person honestly trys every day to obey the new testament God (Jesus ) will not let that soul be lost.

Amen.

[OneLight]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

Like the Berean, I took what you said and placed it against scripture, and it did not hold up to His word. God does not go against His own words. Yet, Satan does work fear into people, even by quoting scripture to them or pointing to God while doing so. What I say is not to be taken as we can just disobey God, but that God, who sent His Son to die for us, would never turn His back on us. Can you see the difference?

OneLight, I understand what you are trying to say. You took what I said and misplaced it upon scripture and it didn't hold up to what you think those scriptures intend to say or have read more into what I have said than I did. The book of Hebrews is all about what I am speaking of yet you cannot see it. I would like to thank you though for offering the scriptures you did as it has provoked me to look back in the old testament at what is being quoted by the writer of Hebrews concerning the Lord not leaving nor forsaking those who are truly his. You may not believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation. I believe that this has been a reoccurring theme in some of your posts I have read. When I read the scriptures though, I see it as a reoccurring theme from cover to cover. Faith equals obedience. Not to confuse the issue with thinking that faith equals sinless perfection as that is not what I am saying (yet I do not completely count out the possibility that a man can live completely without sin for the rest of his life, I just don't know as of yet). This deals more with willful disobedience which equates to thumbing your nose up at God and saying I know that it is wrong but I am going to go ahead and do it anyway and is seen by God as treading Jesus underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. But I cannot express enough for the sake of those who are either new to Christianity or those who have trod the path without very good direction and have found themselves to be ignorantly in sin or failing due to spiritual weakness due to immaturity in Christ, that we can still sin and it is quite expected to happen regularly for a new convert who is without understanding.

If you think that you can be willfully disobedient to God and that he will not do as he has said he will do then we disagree on this point. If you think that I am saying that one who has trouble figuring out how to have victory over the sin he hates that seems to keep happening will be forsaken by God, then you misunderstand me. For the one whose heart is set upon God there is always hope.

I would be interested in hearing your exegesis on the scriptures that I provided originally with an explanation on how you understand them in light of salvation.

Gary

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

[saved34]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

No he is not blaspheming, Gary. What Onelight says is 100% scriptural. You seem to view God as some type of taskmaster, rather than your Father who has charged himself with your complete and total care. Everything in his thoughts towards you is for your best interest. He gave Christ for you which is the ultimate demonstration that he will give you all things that benefit you, freely. Even when he disciplines you it is because he loves you. He is on your side, not against you.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Saved, you misunderstand me at best. I do not see God as a taskmaster at all. I see him as a Holy God who is my Father that loves me enough to be honest and straight forward with me about how he must deal with me because of who and what he is. If I place my hand upon a candle the flame cannot choose not to burn me. If I choose to disregard what my Father has said and continue on my path of destruction banking that he will be merciful and gracious anyway, I will be sadly mistaken in the day of judgment.

Rom 8:31 is a text that is built upon the first 7 chapters of Romans. If you can get through the first 7 chapters and find that all of what they say applies to you as a believer then you can claim victory as one who 8:31 applies too, but there is a lot of text to get through before we can even think about applying these gems to our own selves.

Gary

Gary, are you implying that you have to earn the blessed promises of Romans 8? When Romans 7 dealt with a man trying his best to earn God's favor by keeping the law? The scripture says it is God who Calls, Justifies, Glorifies, and that he is the very judge who will not judge his own. All the blessings from Romans 8 are not hinged on the first 7 chapters of Romans. Have you actually looked at the break down of the individual chapters? Whether you see it or not you are viewing God in a way in which he does not reveal himself to his own. If his own get's out of line he chastises them. He does this for the express purpose that they will not be condemned with the world.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Heb 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It seems as if you are saying God simply skips disciplining his own, and just casts them out to fend for themselves if they act up. That is not what scripture teaches.

[Guest]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

Like the Berean, I took what you said and placed it against scripture, and it did not hold up to His word. God does not go against His own words. Yet, Satan does work fear into people, even by quoting scripture to them or pointing to God while doing so. What I say is not to be taken as we can just disobey God, but that God, who sent His Son to die for us, would never turn His back on us. Can you see the difference?

OneLight, I understand what you are trying to say. You took what I said and misplaced it upon scripture and it didn't hold up to what you think those scriptures intend to say or have read more into what I have said than I did. The book of Hebrews is all about what I am speaking of yet you cannot see it. I would like to thank you though for offering the scriptures you did as it has provoked me to look back in the old testament at what is being quoted by the writer of Hebrews concerning the Lord not leaving nor forsaking those who are truly his. You may not believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation. I believe that this has been a reoccurring theme in some of your posts I have read. When I read the scriptures though, I see it as a reoccurring theme from cover to cover. Faith equals obedience. Not to confuse the issue with thinking that faith equals sinless perfection as that is not what I am saying (yet I do not completely count out the possibility that a man can live completely without sin for the rest of his life, I just don't know as of yet). This deals more with willful disobedience which equates to thumbing your nose up at God and saying I know that it is wrong but I am going to go ahead and do it anyway and is seen by God as treading Jesus underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. But I cannot express enough for the sake of those who are either new to Christianity or those who have trod the path without very good direction and have found themselves to be ignorantly in sin or failing due to spiritual weakness due to immaturity in Christ, that we can still sin and it is quite expected to happen regularly for a new convert who is without understanding.

If you think that you can be willfully disobedient to God and that he will not do as he has said he will do then we disagree on this point. If you think that I am saying that one who has trouble figuring out how to have victory over the sin he hates that seems to keep happening will be forsaken by God, then you misunderstand me. For the one whose heart is set upon God there is always hope.

I would be interested in hearing your exegesis on the scriptures that I provided originally with an explanation on how you understand them in light of salvation.

Gary

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

I'm right there with you, OneLight!

[Fez]

Hi Gary - may I remind you that not everyone is at the same place of maturity and this needs to be taken into consideration. Some are still like babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word. These are still in the first stages of being changed to be more like Him, learning to trust God in their lives.

The message you stated "He took me to these passages among others and explained to me that if I did not obey that which he has taught me then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit." does not follow scripture.

When we read about His love for us, we read that "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." We also read "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

To claim that God said He would abandon you could not of come from God.

Interesting reply Onelight. If what I have said has come from God then are you blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Gary

Like the Berean, I took what you said and placed it against scripture, and it did not hold up to His word. God does not go against His own words. Yet, Satan does work fear into people, even by quoting scripture to them or pointing to God while doing so. What I say is not to be taken as we can just disobey God, but that God, who sent His Son to die for us, would never turn His back on us. Can you see the difference?

OneLight, I understand what you are trying to say. You took what I said and misplaced it upon scripture and it didn't hold up to what you think those scriptures intend to say or have read more into what I have said than I did. The book of Hebrews is all about what I am speaking of yet you cannot see it. I would like to thank you though for offering the scriptures you did as it has provoked me to look back in the old testament at what is being quoted by the writer of Hebrews concerning the Lord not leaving nor forsaking those who are truly his. You may not believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation. I believe that this has been a reoccurring theme in some of your posts I have read. When I read the scriptures though, I see it as a reoccurring theme from cover to cover. Faith equals obedience. Not to confuse the issue with thinking that faith equals sinless perfection as that is not what I am saying (yet I do not completely count out the possibility that a man can live completely without sin for the rest of his life, I just don't know as of yet). This deals more with willful disobedience which equates to thumbing your nose up at God and saying I know that it is wrong but I am going to go ahead and do it anyway and is seen by God as treading Jesus underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. But I cannot express enough for the sake of those who are either new to Christianity or those who have trod the path without very good direction and have found themselves to be ignorantly in sin or failing due to spiritual weakness due to immaturity in Christ, that we can still sin and it is quite expected to happen regularly for a new convert who is without understanding.

If you think that you can be willfully disobedient to God and that he will not do as he has said he will do then we disagree on this point. If you think that I am saying that one who has trouble figuring out how to have victory over the sin he hates that seems to keep happening will be forsaken by God, then you misunderstand me. For the one whose heart is set upon God there is always hope.

I would be interested in hearing your exegesis on the scriptures that I provided originally with an explanation on how you understand them in light of salvation.

Gary

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

I'm right there with you, OneLight!

Ditto for me!

And Gary, can you answer me one question?

Do you consider yourself sinless?

[gdemoss]

And Gary, can you answer me one question?

Do you consider yourself sinless?

Not a simple question to answer. I have original sin so I cannot be without sin. I have sin dwelling in my mortal body that I have to deny rule over me. It is quite possible that I could sin at any moment. But in review of the last few hours since I awoke this morning I don't believe that I have sinned in anything today, my conscience bearing me witness without any conviction from the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact today has been a very good day without any real temptation to sin that comes to mind. We'll see how the rest of the day goes as it progresses though.

Did this answer your question? I tried to answer not knowing what you consider sinless.

Gary

[gdemoss]

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

Thanks for taking time to reply OneLight. I understand your testimony and share something a bit similar in my own history. The truth of my personal journey is that I never actually came to a knowledge of the truth and that is why I went back out into the world and lived as the world does. I was never really a follower of Jesus nor his ways. I had a golden calf I called Jesus but not one that can truly save. I never put on Christ and walked in him for a moment. I was deceived into believing a lie and my works bare witness of that.

You asked if I can back up my statement with scripture. I suggest we discuss then the ones that I originally brought up. You have not explained what the scriptures that i have brought to light teach in your estimation. We should begin with these. Why don't you give some basic exegesis on them that I may understand you better?

Mark 4

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

James 1

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Gary

[OneLight]

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

Thanks for taking time to reply OneLight. I understand your testimony and share something a bit similar in my own history. The truth of my personal journey is that I never actually came to a knowledge of the truth and that is why I went back out into the world and lived as the world does. I was never really a follower of Jesus nor his ways. I had a golden calf I called Jesus but not one that can truly save. I never put on Christ and walked in him for a moment. I was deceived into believing a lie and my works bare witness of that.

You asked if I can back up my statement with scripture. I suggest we discuss then the ones that I originally brought up. You have not explained what the scriptures that i have brought to light teach in your estimation. We should begin with these. Why don't you give some basic exegesis on them that I may understand you better?

Mark 4

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Let's start by looking at the whole passage.

Light Under a Basket

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Since we are discussing your words that Jesus will remove your understanding, I will address this in that light.

"For whoever has, to him more will be given" ... you have Christ and His understanding, do you not? Because you do, more will be given onto you, not taken away from you.

"but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." ... this speaks of those who just claim Christ and not live in a relationship with Him. They have not the Christ, so whatever they think they have, evidence if you may, will be taken away from them so they will see their nakedness.

James 1

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Again, lets look at the full passage.

Doers—Not Hearers Only

21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

This goes along with James 2:14-26

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We must live our faith, not just speak our faith. If we just tell people that we have faith, and do nothing He wills for us to do, where is our faith in Him? If we do His will in our life, it is proof of our faith in Him.

If I have not address this well enough for you, please ask more specific questions.

In Him,

Alan

[Ladyhrtlovesu]

There was a time when I willfully, willingly and rebelliously did contrary to what I KNEW God was telling me to do. I was in direct violation of God's word and will for almost a year. He never left me nor forsook me. He still responded to my prayers and he did not stop teaching me things, but he taught me MORE. Yes, those were some hard, painful lessons that God taught me, but I never felt God was punishing me or holding back from me. In my time of rebellion, He was my rock and kept me from sinking. Sometimes, I do believe God allows us to do what we want, knowing what consequences we will land in, so that HE can use that to bring us back to Him.

[gdemoss]

Gary, you have been studying for 4 years now, which is great. You may be at a turning point in your walk with Christ and may feel like this is what He is implying, but Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. There is a difference between having trouble letting go of something and turning your back on Him. I know this first hand myself. I accepted Jesus in the early 70's, but turned back to drugs for many years, 30+ to be truthful. During that time, He never once let me go too far from Him, always convicting me of my sins, calling me back to Him. During that time, I ODed more then once, but He had a different plan for my life and would not let me go. Little by little, His words grew to have solid meaning in me and I came back. You see, He never took away anything He taught me, never sent me to learn from devils, never abandoned me, leaving me to my sins. He very lovingly worked in my heart and drew me back. This is why I say that what you are hearing, if these are the words, could not come from Christ. Men may let you walk the path you choose, but Christ will never turn you away when He knows your true heart.

Perhaps you can show me where you find backing in the scriptures for what you said. Here is was I am referring to.

"then he would not only stop teaching me anything else, he would take away the understanding that I already had. I would be left to my own carnal understanding of a spiritual book and guided by devils rather than his Holy Spirit"

Can you break this down and back it with scripture?

Thanks for taking time to reply OneLight. I understand your testimony and share something a bit similar in my own history. The truth of my personal journey is that I never actually came to a knowledge of the truth and that is why I went back out into the world and lived as the world does. I was never really a follower of Jesus nor his ways. I had a golden calf I called Jesus but not one that can truly save. I never put on Christ and walked in him for a moment. I was deceived into believing a lie and my works bare witness of that.

You asked if I can back up my statement with scripture. I suggest we discuss then the ones that I originally brought up. You have not explained what the scriptures that i have brought to light teach in your estimation. We should begin with these. Why don't you give some basic exegesis on them that I may understand you better?

Mark 4

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Let's start by looking at the whole passage.

Light Under a Basket

21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Since we are discussing your words that Jesus will remove your understanding, I will address this in that light.

"For whoever has, to him more will be given" ... you have Christ and His understanding, do you not? Because you do, more will be given onto you, not taken away from you.

"but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." ... this speaks of those who just claim Christ and not live in a relationship with Him. They have not the Christ, so whatever they think they have, evidence if you may, will be taken away from them so they will see their nakedness.

James 1

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Again, lets look at the full passage.

Doers—Not Hearers Only

21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

This goes along with James 2:14-26

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We must live our faith, not just speak our faith. If we just tell people that we have faith, and do nothing He wills for us to do, where is our faith in Him? If we do His will in our life, it is proof of our faith in Him.

If I have not address this well enough for you, please ask more specific questions.

In Him,

Alan

OneLight, it is weird reading what you have written here as it is not contrary to what I have said of the passages.

Gary