Infant baptism

[stevehut]

Parents are irrelevant to your salvation when it comes time to decide for yourself. Their decision will NOT carry you. Their belief cannot save you, and their unbelief cannot condemn you

Yup.

[johnP]

I have never said that anyone is "innocent."

That is my mistake and I apologise. Forgive me.

One of the meanings of miseo is given to you in Strongs as "to love less" THAT is the way it used in Luke 14:26 and in Rom. 9:13. It is NOT being used as "detest" or to "hate" in the absolute or full-force sense that the English word "hate" conveys.

Then why did the translators translate it hate?

The word for hate in the Greek in Rom 9:13 is miseo and does not carry the full force of positive hatred in the Greek as the word "hate" does in English.

But that is wrong is it not? That is your interpretation isn't it. The word does carry the meaning.

Main Entry: 1hate Pronunciation Guide

Pronunciation: ht, usu -d.+V

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): -s

Usage: often attributive

Etymology: Middle English, alteration (probably influenced by haten, v.) of hete, from Old English; akin to Old High German haz hate, Old Norse hatr hate, Gothic hatis wrath, Greek kdos grief, mourning, Avestan sdra sorrow

1 a : intense hostility toward an object (as an individual) that has frustrated the release of an inner tension (as of a biological nature) <quick dislike had ripened into hate -- I.V.Morris> <rid your mind of any hidden hates or grudges -- W.J.Reilly>; specifically : a systematic especially politically exploited expression of hate <the forces of darkness, bigotry, and hate> <hate list> <hate bombings> <hate mail> b : an habitual emotional attitude in which distaste is coupled with sustained ill will <his life became increasingly dominated by hate> c : a strong dislike or antipathy : DISTASTE <developed a hate for string quartets>

2 : an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business -- F.L.Paxson>

"hate." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (13 Oct. 2004).

Are you saying they made a mistake?

johnp.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have never said that anyone is "innocent."

That is my mistake and I apologise. Forgive me.

One of the meanings of miseo is given to you in Strongs as "to love less" THAT is the way it used in Luke 14:26 and in Rom. 9:13. It is NOT being used as "detest" or to "hate" in the absolute or full-force sense that the English word "hate" conveys.

Then why did the translators translate it hate?

The word for hate in the Greek in Rom 9:13 is miseo and does not carry the full force of positive hatred in the Greek as the word "hate" does in English.

But that is wrong is it not? That is your interpretation isn't it. The word does carry the meaning.

Main Entry: 1hate Pronunciation Guide

Pronunciation: ht, usu -d.+V

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): -s

Usage: often attributive

Etymology: Middle English, alteration (probably influenced by haten, v.) of hete, from Old English; akin to Old High German haz hate, Old Norse hatr hate, Gothic hatis wrath, Greek kdos grief, mourning, Avestan sdra sorrow

1 a : intense hostility toward an object (as an individual) that has frustrated the release of an inner tension (as of a biological nature) <quick dislike had ripened into hate -- I.V.Morris> <rid your mind of any hidden hates or grudges -- W.J.Reilly>; specifically : a systematic especially politically exploited expression of hate <the forces of darkness, bigotry, and hate> <hate list> <hate bombings> <hate mail> b : an habitual emotional attitude in which distaste is coupled with sustained ill will <his life became increasingly dominated by hate> c : a strong dislike or antipathy : DISTASTE <developed a hate for string quartets>

2 : an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business -- F.L.Paxson>

"hate." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (13 Oct. 2004).

Are you saying they made a mistake?

johnp.

They also translated the same verb as "hate" in Luke 14:26 where Jesus said to "hate" our parents for His sake. Did Jesus mean to detest your parents and hold them as cotemptuous, or did he mean to prefer Christ over our parents, if we have to make a choice? It is really simple hermeneutics John, and needs just a bit of common sense.

Furthermore, don't bother using an English dictionary to define a Greek verb.

[ted]

This one's still going?

t.

[Orr v'emet]

QUOTE

[Work in Progress]

Yes, that's the verse I was referencing and no, you didn't answer my question. LOL! The verse specifically says that if we raise up a child in "the way" (Christianity) , he will not depart from it. This is a specific promise of salvation...........isn't it? Can we then trust in this promise and have total faith that our children are saved if we raise them in the Lord? What do we say to the many Christian parents who have raised them in the Lord, but the children show no fruit or evidence of salvation?

I did not say anything about "inherrent" innocence. I said that babies who are too young to know right from wrong are held in innocence. As I said to JohnP, newborns who died from SIDS, do not go to hell. Infants do not go to hell, stillborns do not go to hell, etc. They are not "inherrently" innocent, but neither are they held accountable by God for what they can not possibly know. I think that should go without saying.

No, nothing should "go without saying", Shiloh. What are the Scripture references for your claims that "children who are too young to know right from wrong are held in innocence"? Or that "newborns who died from SIDS do not go to hell" and are "not held accountable by God"? Let's skip all of our beliefs, and just get right to the Scripture references. The Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That there is NONE righteous. What are your Scripture references to the contrary? Thanks.

[Guest shiloh357]

I did not say anything about "inherrent" innocence. I said that babies who are too young to know right from wrong are held in innocence. As I said to JohnP, newborns who died from SIDS, do not go to hell. Infants do not go to hell, stillborns do not go to hell, etc. They are not "inherrently" innocent, but neither are they held accountable by God for what they can not possibly know. I think that should go without saying.

No, nothing should "go without saying", Shiloh. What are the Scripture references for your claims that "children who are too young to know right from wrong are held in innocence"? Or that "newborns who died from SIDS do not go to hell" and are "not held accountable by God"? Let's skip all of our beliefs, and just get right to the Scripture references. The Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That there is NONE righteous. What are your Scripture references to the contrary? Thanks.

Before I begin, I need to ask...

For the sake of clarification, am I to assume from your response that you believe that an infant that is not baptized will go to Hell if it were to die? If say a 6 month old baby were to suffocate, or drown in a swimming pool or be killed in an auto acccident, would that child, in your belief, spend eternity in hell if the parents either Christian or not, did not baptize that child?

My response will depend on how you answer this. I cannot skip our beliefs until I know what yours is regarding the above question.

[Work in Progress]

My response will depend on how you answer this. I cannot skip our beliefs until I know what yours is regarding the above question.

Shiloh, not trying to be difficult, but I don't understand why anyone's beliefs would be a consideration when posting Scriptural reference to back up statements that you make. It's a simple enough request......no? My beliefs won't change your Scripture references. You made the claims, the ball is in your court.

Here are the questions again:

What are the Scripture references for your claims that "children who are too young to know right from wrong are held in innocence"?

~And~

Or that "newborns who died from SIDS do not go to hell" and are "not held accountable by God"?

[Orr v'emet]

Yes, that's the verse I was referencing and no, you didn't answer my question. LOL! The verse specifically says that if we raise up a child in "the way" (Christianity) , he will not depart from it. This is a specific promise of salvation...........isn't it? Can we then trust in this promise and have total faith that our children are saved if we raise them in the Lord? What do we say to the many Christian parents who have raised them in the Lord, but the children show no fruit or evidence of salvation?

Sorry. I truly was not trying to avoid the question.

I still hold to the fact that choosing salvation is up to each individual. I think parents can do their absolute best to raise them in the faith but like you said, there are children who show no fruit or evidence of salvation. Now is that to say that they never will? No. Who knows what goes on in a person's heart up until the moment of death. I think the focus that we should draw from the verse is the command to raise a child in the way they should go. Doing this, you have done your part, it's up to the child for the rest of it. All of the children I know that have been brought up in a godly home that have turned from their faith have not yet returned so...I don't know. Anyone else with some insight on that? Shiloh?

[johnP]

shiloh357.

Furthermore, don't bother using an English dictionary to define a Greek verb.

I did not. Why do you say I did? I used the dictionary to define an English word, 'Hate'.

I used Strong's to find out what a Greek word meant. The Greek means more than you said it did and I find that to be deceptive and misleading. You have had plenty of time to correct a mistake and you have not.

The word for hate in the Greek in Rom 9:13 is miseo and does not carry the full force of positive hatred in the Greek as the word "hate" does in English.

Which is false is it not? Which I asked you and you refused to answer.

Again I ask you, are you saying that the translators made a mistake?

johnp.