Believer's Freedom

[lance.dunlop]

This is occasionally a heated subject with much debate behind it. The reason I am asking this is because I busted out my set of Magic the Gathering cards (which haven't been used for about 5 years since I graduated High School) because some of my students and others who I had met who played the game. I had figured, this was an opportunity for ministry, played a couple games with a friend to try and get a deck back together, played some games with students and other said ministry opportunity. A friend/ex-youth leader who is a deacon at my church confronted me and my friend on this, talking about the sorcery and idolatry behind the game. Our points being, they are paper with ink, and we only wanted to do something good with them. I didn't want to start a war so I opted out so we didn't speak evil of each other, but his stance on almost everything is as simple as black and white, but it's hard to feel it lovingly most of the time. That aside, I had been under my Youth Pastor and hung out at his house Saturday's nights so I could go to church and watched him play World of Warcraft, and admirably he didn't let it interfere with his faith. Now biblically, I do not see the problem with doing this or other specific games if I can honestly, and not for excuse, use them to make an opportunity to preach the gospel and create ministry relationships. If these things are on the line, that would put football due to violence and exposure to drunkenness and lust on the line, movies, even new ones like the Avengers because of violence and a false god Thor, and fishing because you could be evangelizing or serving your community instead =D The black and white line in my opinion is well too often used as a sword instead of a shield, but I'm not here for opinions. I want biblical wisdom and truths to expand my understanding, and as well hopefully have a very good God honouring conversation.

So here's the question of liberalism and legalism. Is there a gray area? Or is it always black and white? And is there a line and/or gray area that is different for each person due to what they can handle? God bless, and I'm excited for all the responses.

[OldShep]

So here's the question of liberalism and legalism. Is there a gray area? Or is it always black and white? And is there a line and/or gray area that is different for each person due to what they can handle? God bless, and I'm excited for all the responses.

Well now, had to educate myself on Magic cards seems to be something like Dungeons Dragons. Colors are great, black and white still holds true a far as sin is concerned, yet, not all servants of the Lord have the same job. For those who are weak these things should be avoided for they become the subject of worship..(too much time spent with Magic cards) over spending time with Worshipping the Lord God.

If I pick up these cards can I find Christ in them? Paul's word come to mind: Is there truth in the cards? Do these teach one to be noble? What is right about these Magic cards?. As a teacher you need to be aware of the weaknesses of those that you teach.

Well you get the idea

Php 4:5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.

Php 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Php 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

ICL~~Dennis

[saved34]

Things are not always black and white. Your intentions seemed to be for the glory of Christ. The hard part of this would be to take into account the weak conscious of your brother in Christ. (I'm sort of like him lol) You have an obligation to not wound his conscious and pretty much have that faith to yourself. In other words, you know that it is not a sin in and of itself, but your brother does not. Maybe you should do this type of witnessing when he is not around. You want to talk about things that are dangerous, we are all sitting here using the information highway, there are no card games on earth that are as potentially dangerous or sinful (potentially lead to sin) as the internet. It is how you use something, and for what reasons. Some people right now are using this same internet to do all manner of evil, and debauchery. We are using it to share in the word of God and encourage one another. We all have things they may look questionable to other believers, yet they are not sins. I have every right to go to a liquor store, and get me a beer (as long as I'm not drunk), and I would not be judged by God. Yet if a fellow saint see me, or my worldly neighbor see me doing this, it can ruin my testimony with them. It can cause my fellow brother to become weak, he may have been an alcoholic before he was saved, and that can embolden him to fall back into that life style. Me personally, I love greek mythology, the stories are fascinating and entertaining, yet I know they are phony and have no basis for reality. I have that faith to my self and do not flaunt that around my brothers and sisters who's conscious's cannot do such things without becoming defiled. (lol I guess I just did flaunt) . We have to be wise in our witnessing. I pray God makes me a wise witness like yourself.

Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1Co 8:9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

1Co 8:10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?

1Co 8:11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.

1Co 8:12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

[mizzdy]

This is occasionally a heated subject with much debate behind it. The reason I am asking this is because I busted out my set of Magic the Gathering cards (which haven't been used for about 5 years since I graduated High School) because some of my students and others who I had met who played the game. I had figured, this was an opportunity for ministry, played a couple games with a friend to try and get a deck back together, played some games with students and other said ministry opportunity. A friend/ex-youth leader who is a deacon at my church confronted me and my friend on this, talking about the sorcery and idolatry behind the game. Our points being, they are paper with ink, and we only wanted to do something good with them. I didn't want to start a war so I opted out so we didn't speak evil of each other, but his stance on almost everything is as simple as black and white, but it's hard to feel it lovingly most of the time. That aside, I had been under my Youth Pastor and hung out at his house Saturday's nights so I could go to church and watched him play World of Warcraft, and admirably he didn't let it interfere with his faith. Now biblically, I do not see the problem with doing this or other specific games if I can honestly, and not for excuse, use them to make an opportunity to preach the gospel and create ministry relationships. If these things are on the line, that would put football due to violence and exposure to drunkenness and lust on the line, movies, even new ones like the Avengers because of violence and a false god Thor, and fishing because you could be evangelizing or serving your community instead =D The black and white line in my opinion is well too often used as a sword instead of a shield, but I'm not here for opinions. I want biblical wisdom and truths to expand my understanding, and as well hopefully have a very good God honouring conversation.

So here's the question of liberalism and legalism. Is there a gray area? Or is it always black and white? And is there a line and/or gray area that is different for each person due to what they can handle? God bless, and I'm excited for all the responses.

For some its not a problem and those can view these type of things as nothing more than games. However what I have seen is that the youth of today can't seem to separate things of this nature, some are weak not so much in faith but in knowledge of what God accepts and doesnt. We are told not to have anything to do with witchcraft or the things that could be seen as attached to it. Some people are just more vulnerable to spirits than others. Legalism comes in when people are pushed aside instead of being ministered too, love comes first above all else and thats what we see in the good Samaritan example. Its not legalism to say that games that promote witchcraft or the like is wrong and shouldnt be used.

You cannot compare the violence of football to the under tones of the advesary in games that promote them. Drunkeness is something everyone can see, most know what leads to it, and what might come from it, thats not entirely true with games you are talking about. We never know what spirit might be lurking about while playing games, impressionable minds may be the very target they are looking for to grasp nor what people will assign to those black and white playing cards. And well I think thats the whole thing some will see those card games as nothing more than black and white images, some may see that its ok to play around with those 'type' of things apart from the christian setting and become engaged in other stuff. We just never really know how people will respond, but thats the whole point of letting His light shine in all that we do, so we must ask ourselves if what we do is what He wants and wills for us.

shalom,

Mizz

[lance.dunlop]

For those who are weak these things should be avoided for they become the subject of worship..(too much time spent with Magic cards) over spending time with Worshipping the Lord God.

One reason why I was asking others if doing these things in ministry is stepping over my line? I myself have cut myself off of these things, and other games because of either content or amount of time I spent in them, as I can usually start to balance them, but eventually have to come to the realization that I have spent my time foolishly not using these things for His glory.

The hard part of this would be to take into account the weak conscious of your brother in Christ. (I'm sort of like him lol) You have an obligation to not wound his conscious and pretty much have that faith to yourself. In other words, you know that it is not a sin in and of itself, but your brother does not. Maybe you should do this type of witnessing when he is not around.

I haven't actually played since that, and that was about 2 months ago. I may end up coming this weekend as we have a lockin our church's youth staff is helping with. I'll sit down and play if I'm invited, and use the game as a means to the end of getting to know these kids and bringing them Christ. But I have cut it out completely from my personal life, aside from any ministry opportunities that may present themselves.

For some its not a problem and those can view these type of things as nothing more than games. However what I have seen is that the youth of today can't seem to separate things of this nature, some are weak not so much in faith but in knowledge of what God accepts and doesnt. We are told not to have anything to do with witchcraft or the things that could be seen as attached to it. Some people are just more vulnerable to spirits than others. Legalism comes in when people are pushed aside instead of being ministered too, love comes first above all else and thats what we see in the good Samaritan example. Its not legalism to say that games that promote witchcraft or the like is wrong and shouldnt be used.

You cannot compare the violence of football to the under tones of the advesary in games that promote them. Drunkeness is something everyone can see, most know what leads to it, and what might come from it, thats not entirely true with games you are talking about. We never know what spirit might be lurking about while playing games, impressionable minds may be the very target they are looking for to grasp nor what people will assign to those black and white playing cards. And well I think thats the whole thing some will see those card games as nothing more than black and white images, some may see that its ok to play around with those 'type' of things apart from the christian setting and become engaged in other stuff. We just never really know how people will respond, but thats the whole point of letting His light shine in all that we do, so we must ask ourselves if what we do is what He wants and wills for us.

I'm not saying that it's legalism to in his conscience to question the things that are listed on the cards. His issue was my spiritual health, but on the fact that a false convert (to my knowledge) had fallen away after being overwhelmed with games. He said he didn't want this to happen. The issue was he threw it in my face that drinking is when done properly, but we shouldn't "reach out" by throwing a drinking party at the church, so we shouldn't allow kids to play the game in the church, or partake in it with them. My point was the opportunity to bring others into the group to minister to them with this. That aside, the reason I pointed out football's violence is because there are some people who can be lead astray by the game itself, and there are people who cuss and hit people out of anger and personal enjoyment in the games. I have nothing against it myself, but the "logic" was the exact same as this...

If there is any content that is questionable, cut it out. Then it 'can' turn into legalism, although not always. I have heard him speak of the believer's freedom which honestly surprised me, on the subject of alcohol, saying that it won't hurt some of his friends' faiths, but his it would destroy because of his life before Christ. I know he knows of the freedom I enjoy, and I'm trying to bring myself to a point where my freedom is used for good and not an excuse. Which is where I am at on this, to use this as a discipline...partaking of the meat sacrificed to idols, but not worshiping the idols so to speak...for the sake of non-believers are there and I want to be an effective witness by showing love and yet not compromising my faith.

This weekend I was invited to play a table top game that I have not played in about 4 years, based upon a fictional future universe called Warhammer 40k. In this there are Psykers, demons, humans, xenos (aliens), sorcerers, and the like. At this they smoked pot, drank, cussed a lot, spoke of sexual things, yet in all of this I was able to talk about God freely and bear witness to God by not partaking in the things they were doing, but showing them love and no judgment. I have been invited to play more, and will be able to further the Gospel to people that only I have an opportunity to do so with. I might even bring my brother Shawn with who is a man who I evangelize with who I know is filled with the Spirit and will not let his faith falter in these settings. Is this wrong even with the content? If I do these things, and partake in the setting, but bear witness am I in the wrong? I will gladly eat of the meat but not worship the demonic religion of men. If my faith is hurting for it my brothers will hold me accountable as I them, and I know that. If these people pressure my faith, they know that I won't give in, or I will leave, and I know they respect that. Was this bad? To dine with tax collectors and sinners? I do believe I have to talk with him further and plead with him that I wish to do this things for good, to keep me lifted up in prayers, and just because I'm not perfect I have a God who's greater than my temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13), and if I do these things filled of the Spirit I know He will overcome obstacles for me. Or do I overstep my boundaries?

[OldShep]

Sir Lance.dunlop..

As a brother in Christ, I read your questions and get the feeling that what you plan to do, may not be what God would have you do,... but rather what you want to do.

I would turn to God in prayer and ask for His Guidance in this issue.

I'm am not the Christian police, I have learned that when I point figures at others three are pointing back at me. Sometimes the only Bible other people will ever read is us the person, every action, every word, every choice we make, tells a story of who we are. My past is dead, a new life I have in Christ, the old has gone and the new has arrived. To return to the old ways and think that I would be save from "falling" would be "prideful" on my part. *(4) To dare compare myself to Paul and think I could resist evil (temptation) even with the help of another brother with me would be thinking highly of myself. However, if I felt that it was a calling by God, into the valley of death I would walk with peace in my heart to serve Him, and there would be no need for such questions.

1. Is this wrong even with the content?

2. If I do these things, and partake in the setting, but bear witness am I in the wrong?

3. Was this bad?

*(4) To dine with tax collectors and sinners?

5. Or do I overstep my boundaries?

This is just my view, I could be wrong, but I get the idea that you think you have no boundaries, thinking you can charge in where Angels dare not go.

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Gal 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Gal 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Gal 6:4 Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,

Gal 6:5 for each one should carry his own load.

Gal 6:6 Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.

I have to keep reminding myself that there are no perfect people in the Church, but one, Jesus. Lord I pray that You show me my short comings and restore me gently to the fold.

ICL~~~Dennis

[lance.dunlop]

This is just my view, I could be wrong, but I get the idea that you think you have no boundaries, thinking you can charge in where Angels dare not go.

Don't be afraid to speak your mind, I did ask for it, and to be something that could be spread to all subjects other than my own situation. Now, I am not saying in any way that I am a person who would be strong enough to wander into a strip club and evangelize. I do trust that God would grant me extra strength in that situation, if for whatever far out there reason there would be for me to ever step in one, in order that I wouldn't sin. But sin later, I can guarantee it. I am not in anyway saying that I am liberal with my faith and what I can handle or subject myself through. I am, as all of us are, in a lifetime's work of sanctification. I do not for a second think anything other than no matter how much more Christ like the Holy Spirit makes me, there will always be something else. I will forget grace for others at one point, at another I will lust, in another point of my life I will struggle in patience, and one more I will fail to forgive. These are but the mere constants of a human of any person, no matter how great or small, no matter how call by God they are in ministry. I do not seek to show myself as anything less. I have cut a lot of things out of my life. I am glad to do so for God showed me these things, and I am happy to rid myself of them. Especially if it's His will. And moreso seeing as despite my young age I am in a place of leadership, which not only brings me into a place of leading youth, but leading and setting an example for many adults in my church.

The last thing I ever want to portray to them in my faith is that I have no boundaries, because they are there. Now there are things that I had partook in a year ago that I thought fun, but now looking back at them were follow, and God has so inspired in me a hatred for these things. So is the process of growing. And perhaps the Lord will convict me on this as well, and I believe He has to a point in the sense that I know I should not be doing this for my hobby and pleasure. But in the end, there are things which can be used to do good, especially in the context of Youth ministry, as I would not last very long going into the school and evangelizing. There are students who bear witness to the gospel, and others invite their friends only, but many of these people come seeing they can do things like thus and not be judged. Where the eventual story unfolds that all the other churches they were at, they had judgment, and they did not hear the gospel of Jesus as we preached it.

Bear with me if I'm repetitive, it's 4AM here, but my boundaries are more strict than many I know. The situation I laid out about the people who were smoking and drinking, I was invited, and did not know that they would be doing these things. I certainly did not go there with excitement about being around the rank smell of pot, but with a joy that I may talk to friends from high school whom I haven't seen in over 2 years. With the game of cards, it's something I'd want to do in hopes that it would bring kids to us that we couldn't normally reach, especially with the small size of leaders who can invest in the students' lives outside of the church setting. I truly do only want to use these as a means for creating relationships with those who wouldn't normally step foot in a church and be excited to be around those who love them, who instead think that prior to this we would only judge them. My intentions are honest, not pridefully brother, but truly I want to do this for good, not so that my freedom may allow sin so that grace may abound. I know it's hard to place that truth via a keyboard, and I really just wanted to lay out the situation of how this was brought to me, and ask for a general answer for general discussion, and not so much answer any misc statements that come forth. But thank you truly for your concern. I did not mean to misrepresent myself in making anyone think I wanted to jump into sin because of the grace bought for me. I hope this helps, but like I said, this can be quite a debate from time to time. Especially seeing as we, fairly truly are, in the gray area for many areas of our lives with movies, TV, sports, clothing, food, video games etc. There's more I feel like typing, but then I know I will be repetitive. Thanks for the honest response.

[Guest Butero]

A lot of things are black and white, but not everything. It is possible for a person to have a personal conviction about something that is ok for someone else. For instance, some believe it is ok to drink in moderation, and some say one drop of alcohol is sinful. The Bible speaks against being a drunkard, but not about drinking in moderation, so the black and white is don't be a drunkard, but the grey is whether or not to drink at all? In that case, it comes down to your personal conscience.

I think the same thing would apply in the example you gave? If you were merely playing a game, I am not sure it is sinful, but there are some things that can cross the line, such as the OUIJA board or tarot cards. I don't know anything about the cards you are speaking of, so I am not sure if they are for fortune telling, or roll playing? It does make a difference.

As for legalism, I believe that people just throw that word around to justify doing things that are sinful, or at least very questionable. They don't want anyone to make them feel bad about what they are doing, so if they try, they are labeled legalistic. The question isn't legalism, but whether or not what you were doing is sinful? Again, not knowing exactly what those cards are used for, I don't know? The biggest problem with fortune telling is that people will put their faith in that over God, and will be led astray. I know people that follow their horoscope to the letter, and if it said not to go to work, they would stay home. If only people followed God like that? Anyway, in a nutshell, some things are black and white, and some things are not.

[OldShep]

Where the eventual story unfolds that all the other churches they were at, they had judgment, and they did not hear the gospel of Jesus as we preached it.

Yes! It is hard to hear the Word of God if the person telling you about it is beating you over the head with the Bible at the same time.

I'm in the state of Maine, it's 0345 hours here, and as I respond to you, I recall just how easy it is to take the written word out of context. E-mail's, letters, memo's all lack the ability to obtain instant feedback from watching the person that you are talking to. I am a man of few word's and often say the thing that is on my mind, which has been known to cause a lot of discord at times. A man of action, who is more concerned with doing what is right then worrying about what others may think. "Walk the talk" as one of my teachers used to say. On top of that I'm a former military person, a leader, long range reconnaissance/ ASA and an engineer, who knows how to deal with machines a lot better then people. A steward of church properties and on a few committees. That have a hard time agreeing on things at times to. So please forgive me if I may have overstepped your request for feed back.

May the Grace of God go with you and protect you in all that you choose to do. May you Lead many to Christ and remain humble to the Lord seeking only His reward for being a Faithful servant of Christ.

In Christian Love~~~Dennis

[lance.dunlop]

I'm not going to be buying any. Even If I was employed. I stopped buying stuff for hobbies a long time ago. I'd also be foolish buying any since I'm going into the missions field soon. I can't afford to be buying or creating an addictive habit. If my students didn't have friends who played I'd probably have pawned them on someone by now.