I John 5:16

[D. OSAS]

Hey Gary

In general, you have made a valid point.

But in the specifics of theology you have overlooked the crucial distinction between justification and sanctification.

Justification is the new birth; sanctification is spiritual growth. They are two parallel yet mutually exclusive (distinct) concepts.

God is pleased with us when we believe in Jesus. At that moment we are justified. We areborn from above, forgiven, adopted into God's family, and transferred into Jesus' kingdom (Col 1:12-14).

At that same identical moment we are sanctified. We begin a process of spiritual growth. We can be carnal. I don't endorse that. But given that our best state is vanity (Psalm 39:5) and that the best of righteous deeds is "filthy rags" (Isa 64:6), then we are constantly carnal. The differences betweeen us are only relative. You may be less carnal than me - but we are both always consistently carnal.

The foolish believer of 1 cor 3:11-15 illustrates this quite nicely.

He was justified in unquestionable possession of eternal life.

He was a zero in terms of sanctificaiton. All of his works were consumed in the fires of judgement.

YET HE WAS STILL SAVED (V 15).

So I don't endorse foolish sin.

But I praise God for His merciful gracious disposition toward us in Jesus Christ.

Dr. OSAS

This is a difficult passage of scripture that has as many interpretations as there are doctrines. This is a passage that ends up on the cutting room floor due to the fact that it doesn't fit in with the core doctrines of some well established Christian denominations. Carnal Christianity, people trying to live out and study the scriptures carnally, end up having to stuff these things inside of their neatly packaged theological studies without causing conflict. My hope is that I have finally gotten away from that, as that is what I was for so long, and moved on to waiting on the spirit of the living God to reveal the truth of the scripture unto me when I am ready to receive it.

1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1Jo 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

As I have read this passage over time, along with the rest of the counsel of God, I have been led to believe that it simply speaks about willful deliberate sin versus ignorant or sins of weakness. Many do not agree. Please don't feel the need to correct me as I am not in a place of being able to receive it as my conviction of this as truth is great. I simply ask others to consider the words here and how they show that there are two different categories of sin spoken of here and not 2 different sins period. The sin spoken of is said to be able to be discerned of which category it belongs in by sight, visual/perception, as one sees/percieves their brother sin in this manner. The passage is about praying inside the will of God and receiving what we ask for because we do so.

Verse 18 contrasts two things as well. A man who does not continue in known sin versus one who does. One who continually keeps himself in the spirit that Satan cannot touch him versus one who doesn't. 19 says that we know the whole world continues in sin. Then he clarifies that Jesus came and showed us the Father through his own manifestation and declaration. That we can have a perfect 'image' or 'idol' of God in Christ. So John finishes the book/letter by warning us to keep ourselves from 'idols' or 'false images of God'. Having a false image of God will cause a person to err in their ways.

There are those out there who believe that they can continue in willful deliberate known sin and be in good standing with God through the blood of Jesus Christ. I disagree and beseech each one to be reconciled unto God through willful obedience unto righteousness as it can be known in Christ Jesus by putting on the Lord and walking in him. God is not mocked a man shall reap what he sews. We do however have this treasure in earthen vessels and can sin out of ignorance as Christians. I find that most sin from my brothers and sisters comes in the form of weakness though. They believe they can do things that they cannot and find themselves in sin. They find themselves suddenly faced with something that they didn't see coming and sin. They are just like Peter and find themselves broken inside over their failures, weeping at the throne of grace once again. I have found myself here on occasion.

The sin unto death is that which is willful and deliberate that can be seen in companion verses through out scripture. It is a sin 'unto' death as in it leads to death. Hebrews chapter 4 covers this as well when it speaks warning us not to let an evil heart of unbelief spring up in us causing us to depart from the living God. It speaks of the process of apostasy. Mark 4 also carries this warning telling us to be careful to heed what we hear or lose what we already have been given. Apostasy is a process of falling out of love with the God you first came to love because he first loved you. It is real. It has definite consequences. Righteousness equals revelation while disobedience equals confusion.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[gdemoss]

Hey Gary

In general, you have made a valid point.

But in the specifics of theology you have overlooked the crucial distinction between justification and sanctification.

Justification is the new birth; sanctification is spiritual growth. They are two parallel yet mutually exclusive (distinct) concepts.

God is pleased with us when we believe in Jesus. At that moment we are justified. We areborn from above, forgiven, adopted into God's family, and transferred into Jesus' kingdom (Col 1:12-14).

At that same identical moment we are sanctified. We begin a process of spiritual growth. We can be carnal. I don't endorse that. But given that our best state is vanity (Psalm 39:5) and that the best of righteous deeds is "filthy rags" (Isa 64:6), then we are constantly carnal. The differences betweeen us are only relative. You may be less carnal than me - but we are both always consistently carnal.

The foolish believer of 1 cor 3:11-15 illustrates this quite nicely.

He was justified in unquestionable possession of eternal life.

He was a zero in terms of sanctificaiton. All of his works were consumed in the fires of judgement.

YET HE WAS STILL SAVED (V 15).

So I don't endorse foolish sin.

But I praise God for His merciful gracious disposition toward us in Jesus Christ.

Dr. OSAS

Justification and Sanctification being two separate things, to this we agree. There is much debate over the topic of your namesake and it is best if we do not derail this thread to delve into such a discussion. I have a different understanding of what you have presented here and would be happy to discuss it with you in a proper venue. I am not one who cares to debate/strive against one another over doctrine as I see it as sin. I do not mind at all explaining why I believe as I do to those who wish to hear.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[Tyler John]

Personally, I am in the camp that says John is talking about the unforgiveable sin, i.e. blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

All arguments about the use or lack of 'a' and 'an' in the English text are useless as Koine Greek used no indefinite articles. All indefinite articles in English translations are the result of the translators' interpretations of the original (or second-hand) language. They are therefore subject to preconceptions and doctrinal assumptions. This does not make the bible any less reliable, of course, but we have to be aware of the way in which we physically receive scripture in order to avoid the trap of thinking one translation is 'better' or 'more accurate' than another. All translations are imperfect and so we should not even try to debate issues on the basis of individual words and phrases.

[ozell]

Just what was John speaking of in this passage?

Sin unto death is teaching te word of God wrong knowingly after God has given you the knowledge of truth

Romans 1:18-22,24,28,32 (KJV)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[ozell]

Just what was John speaking of in this passage?

Here we get a clearer picture from PAul

Hebrews 10:26-29 (KJV)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[ozell]

Just what was John speaking of in this passage?

Mark 3:28-29 (KJV)

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

What spirit is this? It is God's word

John 6:63 (KJV)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Teach the word of God wrong and there is no forgiveness from God.

[coheir]

.

Just what was John speaking of in this passage?

I believe God will forgive all but one sin.

Matt 12: 31

Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven

[coheir]

I have always been taught that the sin unto death was something against a civil law with death as a punishment. Such as murder. If we pray for the person who is guilty of that and has repented, his soul can be saved but not his life.

It made sense to me so I really never researched it deeply.

I'll be interested in what other have to say about it.

Deu 19

11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:

12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.

13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

[deut31:12]

Just what was John speaking of in this passage?

This was speaking of Christians because it refers to those who were call "brother". The "sin unto death" is the sin that is not repented of. Christians can sin and they have the ability to repent and seek forgiveness for it, but Christians also have the ability to allow sins in their lives and not repent of them.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Whe we yeild ourselves servants to sin it is to death.

[gdemoss]

A little more thought concerning those who take the position that this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I tend to agree. If one considers that the Holy Bible was written by the Holy Spirit of the living God as a guidebook for his people, then to blaspheme the true teachings by adding to or taking away from that which God has said would be unforgivable. The word changes us we don't change the word.

In Jesus Name,

Gary