Atheism

[Az_]

In my studies of belief and the nature of the mind I have come to understand the nature of head vs heart belief. I believe (there is that word again) I can explain the way we come to have such beliefs. Of course from your point of view it is this understanding that I believe I have that keeps me from finding God. Just know that we both hope the best for each other even if we happen to disagree about what the best is.

[Orr v'emet]

In my studies of belief and the nature of the mind I have come to understand the nature of head vs heart belief.

[Botz]

Oh, do not mistake me, I am very motivated to find any god if they exist. I am willing get on a plane and go wherever to find any god.

Frog... that is great.

The good news though is that you don't have to spend money on an air ticket to find the One true G-d...all it takes is a step of faith.

The graphic image I have in my mind is the painting by Michaelangelo on the ceiling of the Cistene Chapel where G-d is reaching down to Adam/Man and Adam is reaching a finger towards G-d....for the 'divine connection' there must be a reaching out.

I just don't agree that I will need to suspend my rationality to determine if the evidence that god will present to me is indeed real or just my desire making me me delusional.

It is said that we don't have to commit 'intellectual suicide' in order to understand G-d...I guess this is similar to 'suspending our rationale'...my thoughts on this is that generally the sum of our thoughts presents who we are to ourselves..Descartes declaration stated.."I think therefore I am"..but I believe there is a time and place when we need to lay down our safety net and cry out ....'G-d if you are there show me..help me...save me...' and be willing to allow the Holy Spirit access to our innermost being...where in actual fact all our arguments and rationale mean absolutely nothing in the light of knowing G-d.

This doesn't mean you have thrown away your mind and your reason...it just means that in the light of knowing G-d...that part of yourself that was so precious and essential in defining yourself no longer denies access to the core of your being...but welcomes the Truth ...if indeed the L-rd Jesus is the Truth.

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Az I think you have some interesting points and there is room in the world for the doubting Thomas type of people...the great thing is that after an encounter with the risen Messiah Thomas became a man of great faith and is said to have gone to India and preached the Gospel... eventually martyred by being speared to death.

Every Christian and Messianic Believer on this planet has a background...many have come from a so-called Atheistic stance...and there are some good books written that describe their eventual encounter with the Living G-d...so as a Believer I have every hope that an Atheist will come to a place of saving faith through whatever medium available...a direct personal encounter with the risen L-rd Jesus..or even the sincere testimony of a simple Believer.

Az...

Just off the top of my head I can imagine a number of ways God could have demonstrated his existance in ways that would really take a concerted effort to deny. He could have carved his name in every language on the moon. He could appear daily before us. He could stop by and say Hi every once in a while to both believers and nonbelievers alike in a clearly visible and convincing manner.

It is written in the book of James.. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." ..which again suggests that we need to be open to G-d and His ways...and not try and dictate to Him how He could have made a better job of revealing His ways to us. He has chosen the parameters that define the Universe in which we find ourselves...if you insist on believing that your ways would make much more sense...then I suggest you are walking on 'thin ice'....sincere...but thin.

All atheists need to find their way to God is some credible evidence (in their mind not yours) that he exists. You believe already. You believe so strongly that when presented with evidence and methods from the world that seem to suggest that God does not exist or the bible is wrong you decide that the evidence or methodology must be wrong. We do not have that luxury. We can only follow what we find to be the best path to the truth we can discern. And without evidence God is not part of that path.

The first part is absolutely true...as Christians and Believers we know in whom we have believed...and any so-called evidence that seeks to disprove G-d or the Bible is always (from our point of view) going to be proved wrong or inconclusive...It would be like someone trying to prove that that I was a frog when I know I am a human being...what people also fail to realise is that although belief in G-d was initiated through faith...it is also based on a personal relationship...because the Holy Spirit comes and dwells/takes up residence in the heart of a Believer...even if I wanted to disbelieve I could not because I KNOW the L-rd.

As to the last part.... I would say that there is significant evidence all over the place that points to the existence of G-d...in fact I would go so far as to say that everything your eyes rest upon can tell you something about G-d in even the most obscure way...and yet be profound.

I would also say that many people claim they need evidence and yet even when presented with it or tripping over it everyday...it is not really what they are seaching for...because they are content enough without G-d. There is no desperation,no soul-searching...no hungering and thirsting. At least not until.....?

Matthew 13:45 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.

[2bba]

The purpose of intelligent life if there is no God is to reach the point that we are immortal and that everyone who has ever lived will be brought back to life.

Once immortality is established then exploration and settlement of the universe will rapidly increase. As knowledge increases other realities will be discovered, these too will be explored. Eventually some form of time travel, or as yet unknown science will be found to bring back everyone who has ever died. Everyone will be brought back and future methods will cure all forms of evil and for those who will not be cured then they can be given their own portions of the universe to live in as recluses.

Eventually we will have the ability to create our own realities, or not, as we wish. Then the purpose of life will be like it always has been, not to get bored, but to find something exciting to do. Some will choose to be unmade but this will not work forever because eventually everyone will be brought back again from their exile, from their sleep. In a way this will be the ultimate hell because while everyone will have whatever they desire, everything material, physical, and all love, they will still not be satisfied.

Why will they not be satisfied? They will always know that they are not the creator, but the created. They will always feel like a tool without a purpose. The only way a universe without a God can have the ultimate purpose for intelligent life is if they eventually find that they have created themselves from nothing. This will not occur because of the endless forms of intelligent life throughout the universe that will be discovered in a universe where there is no singularity, no God, and so there cannot be one of anything, not even of intelligent life.

Added to the ultimate hell then, will also be added endless wars with other intelligent life throughout the universe and other realities. So then could be said that Saul has died a thousand times, and David has died ten thousand times.

[Az_]

The good news though is that you don't have to spend money on an air ticket to find the One true G-d...all it takes is a step of faith.

Let me rephrase this a bit so you may see the problem. You have to believe to believe. And that there is the problem. Atheists by definition do not believe. And the bible seems to indicate that it acknowledges that some cannot find their way by faith alone. I would expect that between making the journey with some help is preferable in God's eyes than not making the journey at all.

It is not faith in God you are asking us to have. It is faith in you and your fellow believers. You are asking us to believe you and your interpretations of an ancient past. God is not here speaking to us in a way that we recognise right now. We cannot have faith in him because we do not percieve him. All we have before us are the efforts of believers. And as enpassioned as they are, they are not enough for some. Know that the effort is not unappreciated.

It is written in the book of James.. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." ..which again suggests that we need to be open to G-d and His ways...and not try and dictate to Him how He could have made a better job of revealing His ways to us. He has chosen the parameters that define the Universe in which we find ourselves...if you insist on believing that your ways would make much more sense...then I suggest you are walking on 'thin ice'....sincere...but thin.

I would not presume to dictate to God or anyone else that they must perform certain actions to demonstrate their existance. But by the same token I cannot be expected to acknowledge the existance of someone that does not choose to present themself within my frame of reference. I do not insist on believing the things I do just as you do not insist on believing the things you do. We both are defined by our beliefs. We do not define them. They ebb and flow but at all times our beliefs are the result of the summation of our experiences. The summary of experiences that you have inform you there is a God. The summary of experiences I have inform me there is no God. We cannot change our current natures. Over time they may change. For both of us. But right now, right here, neither one of us can change who we are.

[dwinkjr]

Az,

If it is Evidence you truly seek, I would suggest reading a couple of books.

"the Case for Christ" and "The Case for a Creator" both are written by a reporter and former Aetheist whom was seeking the Evidence of jesus Christ and Creationism. The Book is not always very detailed on some points, but also provides you with many other useful sources to further your research from.

God Bless,

Dave

[ellie]

I once knew an atheist who was terrified of dying. As a Christian I asked him why, he couldn't pin point it. And so I said to him: "If someone were standing between us right now ready to kill us both unless we denied what we believed in, what would you do"? He said, "you mean if someone were to say to me that they would kill me if I did not deny my atheism"? I said yes. He said, well I guess I would have to deny it, what would you do? I told him that I would never deny my believe in Jesus Christ and that I would rather die than to do that. He was astounded. Then I began to grin, he said, "What is so funny about this"? I told him that I would die a believer and he would live a believer and that I thought that was ironic. And here is the dilemma I believe most atheists have, they cannot fully explain why millions of people have died through the centuries rather than deny Jesus Christ. I don't know of anyone who will lay down their very life for a myth. And I would like to add that I am eternally grateful for Jesus Christ who laid His life down for all of us.

Dr. Geisler developed his defense of theism through ten steps, here is his outline.

1. Some things undeniably exist.

2. My nonexistence is possible.

3. Whatever has the possibility not to exist is currently caused to exist by another.

4. There cannot be an infinite regress of current causes of existence.

5. Therefore, a first uncaused cause of my current existence exists.

6. This uncaused cause must be infinite, unchanging, all-powerful, all-knowing,

and all-perfect.

7. This infinitely perfect being is appropriately called "God".

8. Therefore, God exists

9. This God who exists is identical to the God described in the Christian Scriptures.

10. Therefore the God described in the Bible exists.

[Az_]

I once knew an atheist who was terrified of dying.

Not all atheists are afraid of dying. Not all atheists are atheists for the same reason. Not all atheists believe the same things. I cannot account for another atheists beliefs. Suffice to say I am not afraid of dying any more than I am afraid of the time before I was born. Death is something I will attempt to avoid but only because I rather enjoy being alive.

I told him that I would die a believer and he would live a believer and that I thought that was ironic.

Do you really think belief is that simple? That simply stating you believe something makes it true. Try this. Say out loud you believe you can put your hand through the desk in front of you (assuming you'r computer is on a desk). Do you really believe you can put your hand through the desk simply because you said so? You cannot believe you can put your hand through the desk. Even if I were to give you a logical explanation as to why you should be able to you wouldn't believe it. Belief takes a bit more to overcomet than that.

And here is the dilemma I believe most atheists have, they cannot fully explain why millions of people have died through the centuries rather than deny Jesus Christ. I don't know of anyone who will lay down their very life for a myth.

You haven't talked to a lot of atheists. Of course we understand why there are people willing to lay their lives down for their beliefs. Its because they believe it. Do you think the suicide bombers that kill themself and others for their beliefs believe any less than you? Do you think their beliefs are right? Neither do I. You do not believe that you believe a myth. You believe that you believe in reality. It is the skeptics that believe what you believe is a myth. If you thought what you believed was a myth you by definition would not believe it.

Dr. Geisler developed his defense of theism through ten steps, here is his outline.

I am not here to debate theology. I have been through far to many such debates and have seen the disharmony they cause for groups. I have no desire to bring that to your community. Suffice to say that Geisler's arguments and Lee Strobel

[ellie]

Dear AZ if you are not here to debate theisim, then what are you here for? Are you here to persuade others not to believe in God, or to defend your right not to believe? The topic of the thread is Atheisim, I have responded by detailing my experience from my point of view as others here have. I did not claim to know all atheists or to say that all atheists are the same. All human beings are different and yes I do believe that belief is that simple. When I wake up in the morning I believe that I will be faced with daylight, whether it is bright or filtered through clouds, and lo and behold in all the years of my life this has been so. I cannot control the daylight or the nightfall, yet I believe it will happen just the same. I believe that when I look into a mirror that the face which greets me is my own, and fascinatingly enough this has been confirmend by photos that were take of me. So, yes to me belief is that simple. There are things that I know seem to be impossible simply because of the laws of, physics but there are times that even the law of physics bends to its Creator. The marvelous thing about free will is that each of us has the right to choose to believe in God or not. You certainly do have the right to choose and I respect your right to choose. Since I choose to believe in God and in Jesus Christ as my Savior I have become a member of this message board which is predominantly Christian. If you are not here to engage in discussions of theisim or atheisim then what are you wanting from discussions here? Curious.

[Arthur Durnan]

Well, of course, it does require much more faith by far to consider oneself an "atheist" as opposed to declaring a Creator-God eminently alive, alert & available. How can the "atheist's" god-Chance who is INERT, BLIND & MINDLESS create anything whatsoever?

As millions of others have already discovered, an "atheist" cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman (or policewoman).

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