Christian Zionism

[xero]

Galatians 3:26"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's descendants, and heirs according to the promise."

Thats your answer Yod and if you werent being unecessarily protective over a doctrine of man you might learn something. I dont know who made you believe that anyone against zionism is against the Jewish people but that false premise has hardened your heart to anyone who would tell you otherwise even when they speak truly.

[nebula]

Galatians 3:26"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's descendants, and heirs according to the promise."

What does "there is neither male nor female" mean?

[rich08]

Galatians 3:26"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's descendants, and heirs according to the promise."

What does "there is neither male nor female" mean?

Neb raises a very valid point. The same argument of logic is used to defend homosexuality based on the words you have highlighted.

Isn't the point of these verse to underline the inclusivity of the Christian message, that it is for all and doesn't depend on your racial heritage, position in society or gender? (I would argue that Paul's statement is significantly more impactive in the first century because of the stark differences and treatment someone received because their position in society was so dependant on these things.)

It is important too to read the verses to the end. Paul defines what it means to belong to Abraham. You are a descendant of Abraham if you belong to Christ, regardless of that racial heritage, position in society or gender.

This is one of the verses quoted by those who argue for 'replacement' theology, the view that the church is the new Israel and God's promises are now fulfilled in the church. The trouble with that view (at least at face value) is like a husband saying to his wife, 'You know all those promises I made to you on our wedding day; well I've met someone else so I'm going to break them.' And if he then makes the same promises to the new bride, how can she trust him to keep his word when he hasn't in the past? (He rejects Israel for a new bride, the church.)

The alternative (dualistic theological) approach is not without it's problems too, that is the argument that the promises to Israel run alongside and in tandem (maybe overlapping and maybe not) with that of the church. Is God saying to Israel, 'I know you are my people - and you still are - but I've got a new set of people called the church?'

As someone who has only recently (when I started this topic) started looking in depth at the arguments for and against, it would appear the the apostle Paul has 'wrestled' with the same dilemma in his epistle to the Romans, specifically chapters 9 to 11. Of course the whole argument needs to be read in context (and for that matter within the whole book of Romans) but I do note that:

• Paul placed a major emphasis on salvation through faith regardless of Jew/Gentile background
  
• Paul underlines God's faithfulness to his promises and commitment to Israel (for example 11v1 'I ask then has God rejected his people? By no means!,' 11v26 'All Israel will be saved' and 11v29 'the calling of God are irrevocable.')
  
• Paul defines what it means to belong to Israel - so we see in 9v6 'For not all who are descend from Israel belong to Israel.'
  
• Paul speaks of his purpose for Israel being tied up with his purpose for the Gentiles (for example 11v11 'Rather through their salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.')
  

Throughout Paul quotes OT scripture to defend his arguments. It is not the easiest piece of Scripture to grapple with. But I feel it is relevant to the arguments about Israel on both sides.

Please note, I haven't decided where I stand yet - I am just trying to make sense of the arguments: please feel free to comment.

[Guest yod]

Galatians 3:26"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's descendants, and heirs according to the promise."

Thats your answer Yod and if you werent being unecessarily protective over a doctrine of man you might learn something. I dont know who made you believe that anyone against zionism is against the Jewish people but that false premise has hardened your heart to anyone who would tell you otherwise even when they speak truly.

What "doctrine of man" are you talking about?

• That all people have the right to live? That's totally from God.
  
• 
  
• That jewish people have the right to live? That's totally from God too, since He created them as HIS possession.
  
• 
  
• That jewish people have the right to live as a nation among the nations? Deut 32:26-27
  
• 
  
• Or that the people whom God created to bring salvation to you, an ungrateful adopted child, should be allowed to live in the land He gave them as an ever-lasting possession?
  

Sorry, my ignorant friend, but you don't have a leg to stand on, and the verse you posted STILL has no relevance to the subject we're discussing. The following verse is from Deut 32 which, according to God, is one of the two songs that the saints will sing in Heaven (Rev 15:3) called "The Song of Moses"

Read it and weep because those who are arrogant toward the natural branches won't be there to sing with the rest of us.

⁸ When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

⁹ For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

The entire point of this song is to prophecy that Israel will be rebellious throughout history, yet God will deliver a faithful remnant of them because He is faithful to keep His Word.

35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

How should you respond to this clear directive from God about Israel?

43 Rejoice, O ye gentiles, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

So whether you agree that jewish people have the right to live in their homeland or not, you better not be found working against God's will when He comes to destroy their enemies AS PROMISED.

[Guest yod]

Throughout Paul quotes OT scripture to defend his arguments. It is not the easiest piece of Scripture to grapple with. But I feel it is relevant to the arguments about Israel on both sides.

Please note, I haven't decided where I stand yet - I am just trying to make sense of the arguments: please feel free to comment.

Thanks Richard, I'm finding that you are a credible person for allowing the scriptures to be the authority instead of theological commentary from europeans. The only reason it isn't abundantly clear is because the "church" has contradicted the scriptures specific to Israel through the use of greco-theology since the days of Origin.

To me, the entire argument hinges on one question: Will God keep His Word?

If God needs human effort, then it isn't God. This is the argument used by the fringe jewish group that Katy Ann mentioned, but it denies that historically God has quite often worked through the agency of men to accomplish His will.

The history shows that God used wicked nations to judge Israel, and then later He judged those wicked nations for how they treated His people with another wicked nation coming against them.

Sometimes He will use miraculous natural means for accomplishing His sovereign will...but usually He uses people who don't even realize that is what they are doing.

And yet again...totally apart from any promises of God for Israel...most christian zionists hold to the original reason why Israel miraculously returned after 2,000 years of exile; because the jewish people have been under existential threat for millennia. They deserve to live free in their homeland like any other person.

Why? Because "life" is an important biblical concept and, in Him, there is neither jew nor greek, male nor female, free nor slave.....all life is precious.

.

[nebula]

Please note, I haven't decided where I stand yet - I am just trying to make sense of the arguments: please feel free to comment.

I'm impressed with your ability to explain the issue!

But as Yod pointed out, what does the focus of this argument have to do with whether or not the Jews have a right to repossess their homeland (Zionism)? Why surrender the land of Abraham, David, and Jesus to the Muslims? What baffles me is how those who have treated God's covenant with Abraham to the descdendants of Jacob as being null and void seem to want their anme as a people/nation erased as well?

[xero]

Learn what these words mean, "The righteous are justified by faith."

Now because you consider me ignorant I will show you what it means to ignore.

[Guest yod]

Learn what these words mean, "The righteous are justified by faith."

Now because you consider me ignorant I will show you what it means to ignore.

All you have to do is explain what any of that has to do with the issue. Again I point out, who is saved has nothing to do with whether jewish people have the right to

( a) live

( b) in a nation

( c) called Israel

ig·no·rant

   [ig-ner-uhnt]

adjective

1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.

2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of zionism.

3. uninformed; unaware.

4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

[Guest shiloh357]

Zionism is a nasty piece of work thats dragging the whole world into conflict and its by design, satans design not the zionists themselves, Im sure there are plenty of nice zionists with good intentions just like mormons catholics, buddhists, wiccans, politicians, liars…I mean lawyers, etc. ad naseum but the doctrines are venom. I pray you all understand because things are getting real close to a head

.

Here we go. So all of the world's conflicts can be blamed on the Jews, particularly Zionist Jews? Zionism is the root of all of the world's conflicts???? That is the spirit of genuine anti-Semitism. Blame the Jews. How can Zionism be what is "dragging the whole world into conflict??? That is just nonnsense, but we hear that hatefilled spin all of the time. If the Jews would just roll over and die and give up their nation the whole world would be at peace, right???

What I have noted for years is that people like you don't see terrorism and despotic tyrants as the problem. You blame the victims. The problem for you is not that terrorists are killing Jews. The problem and root of the conflict is that those Jews don't want to die.

Having a nation to call one's own isn't a problem for ANY other people on earth, except for the Jews. It is people like you and others on this board who make such dumb comments that enable and embolden terrorists. You and others have shown that some of Israel's worst enemies aren't the ones holding the guns.

[Guest shiloh357]

I never said jews did not have a right to live in Zion. Jews were living in Zion before the nation-state of Israel was established. Some of the Jews living in Zion previously were some of the main opponents of zionism.

I have no wish to get into a heated debate. We are all entitled to our point of view. Anyone who wishes to further investigate may google "jews against zionism." I happen to agree with the Jews who feel this way. Funny how agreeing with orthodox jews makes one anti-semitic.

Anti-Zioinism is characterzed by the view that the Jews do not have a legitimate right to their homeland. That is it's guiding principle. The "Jews" agaisnt Zionism site is sponsored by SMALL group of Orthodox Jews who are so militantly opposed to the existence of Israel that they have actively supported terrorism and have marched in pro-Palestinian marches calling for the destruction of Israel. One of their leaders even served as member of Yasir Arafat's cabinte.

While trying to portray yourself as a "Christian" you throw your support behind a group that calls for the deaths of innocent people, especially the most helpless and vulnerable of Israeli society. So yes, suppoorting THIS particular group of Orthodox Jews is anti-Semitic to core.

The problem with anti-Zionists (and there are a lot of problems with them), is that they misrepresent Zionism and what it stands for. They adopt what amounts to a conspiracy theory that says that the Jews came into the land and pushed everyone out and slaughtered Arabs and that Israeli leaders called for the slaughter of Arabs living in the land and all of that.

Anti-Zionists cannot defend their rabid hatred of Jews and Israel when confronted with what Zionism really is:

· The National Liberation movement of the Jewish People.

• It is the modern expression of the ancient longing by the Jewish People to return to their land and live as a free people once again.
  
• It is the desire to secure a modern state for the Jewish nation.
  
• It is the conviction that the Jewish people have the right to live in freedom and security in its homeland.
  
• It is the determination to aid and encourage the return of any and all Jewish refugees of the Diaspora who wish to return home.
  
• It is the concern for the safety and security of that modern state, and the desire to see it strong enough to defend itself and the Jewish people as a whole from any present or future existential threat.
  

If those principles and ideals were denied to ANY other group of people, it would be called racism. For some reason though, the pargons of racial equality on the left are stragely silent when these ideals are stripped from the Jews.

Anti-Zionism is a joke. And those who believe it are the punch line. Most anti-Zionists don't know what Zionism is and ignore it when they are confronted with its true ideals. Zionism is right and is in line with biblical principles and the promises of God to the Jewish people. Those who say otherwise stand in opposition to God Himself.