CompleteAgape Posted January 14, 2017 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 22 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/23/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2017 On 5/30/2012 at 0:43 PM, nebula said: That still begs the question of why Jesus told them to take their swords - or why the disciples even had the swords to begin with. I believe Jesus answered that in the same scripture. The OT prophecy was to be fulfilled and that was Jesus was to be among transgressors and having weapons made the disciples enemies of the state, having a means of retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretoeternity Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 480 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/06/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 Romans 12.17 and 1st Peter 3.9 Do not repay evil with evil, but evil with good. Romans 12.20 "if your enemy is hungry feed him, if thirsty give him drink". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heretoeternity Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 480 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/06/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 On 14/01/2017 at 0:13 AM, CompleteAgape said: I believe Jesus answered that in the same scripture. The OT prophecy was to be fulfilled and that was Jesus was to be among transgressors and having weapons made the disciples enemies of the state, having a means of retaliation. Hebrews 4 "the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword" Jesus likely was referring to the word of God, and not physical swords...as He told Peter the night He was arrested "live by the sword die by the sword, put it away...there is no evidence the disciples/apostles resisted the tyranny of the leadership in Israel or Rome, so it seems the idea of physcial swords is out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompleteAgape Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 22 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/23/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) On 1/19/2017 at 4:47 AM, heretoeternity said: Hebrews 4 "the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword" Jesus likely was referring to the word of God, and not physical swords...as He told Peter the night He was arrested "live by the sword die by the sword, put it away...there is no evidence the disciples/apostles resisted the tyranny of the leadership in Israel or Rome, so it seems the idea of physcial swords is out of context. You may be right regarding Spiritual sword; however I don't think so. Why would Jesus say sell material things and "buy" swords? How does one buy a spiritual sword? Doesn't make sense. I realize "The Word" which is Jesus is our spiritual sword, yet that "Word" had not been completed because Jesus had not died and rose from death. The word of God at that time was what we know as the OT. The disciples knew the OT and why would Jesus, about to be killed and start a New Covenant doing away with the Old Covenant, want his followers to have something that was about to be done away with. Also they needed more than 2 because the disciples went separate ways spreading the gospel thereby needing many more than 2. Jesus in the same breath referenced Isaiah 53:12 as the prophesy that needed to be fulfilled which was with the disciples bearing arms against the authorities becoming Roman "transgressors". The reference is regarding the secular authority seeing them as transgressors, this needed to be done with physical swords. What would be the spiritual swords and why were there be 2 as said by the disciple? You are absolutely correct that there are no examples of the disciples resisting the authority. They believed being beaten, put in prison, killed was the result of them teaching this "new way" of life. And they believed it showed God's love by not retaliating. This is how I understand the argument that Jesus said to buy swords, it was not to use against people and in fact He never said to harm anyone, in fact He rebuked Peter when Peter used the sword. The purpose is to make Jesus among transgressors which could solidify His arrest and give more "so called evidence" against Him as far as the Romans were concerned. Edited April 24, 2017 by CompleteAgape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted April 24, 2017 On 1/19/2017 at 3:47 AM, heretoeternity said: Hebrews 4 "the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword" Jesus likely was referring to the word of God, and not physical swords...as He told Peter the night He was arrested "live by the sword die by the sword, put it away...there is no evidence the disciples/apostles resisted the tyranny of the leadership in Israel or Rome, so it seems the idea of physcial swords is out of context. Well since everyone decided to resurrect this dead thread, reading the scripture in context, Jesus was referring to an actual, literal sword when he told his disciples to sell a garment to buy one. You can't buy a spiritual sword...nowhere in the Bible is that even a feasible thought. It was clearly a physical sword. And when Peter cut off the gaurds ear...Jesus did not scold him for having it, since Jesus told him to, nor did Jesus tell him to get rid of the sword, just to put it away, because that was not the time and place. Now I know you didn't make this argument but I did see it made, and that was that the swords were there just to fulfil prophecy and make them enemies of the state. the swords were not there to make them enemies of the state. Jesus was already an enemy of the Jewish ruling class by what he taught, nowhere in scripture were weapons charges brought up on Jesus, either to the Jewish ruling class nor to the Romans. In fact to my knowledge owning a sword was not illegal in Rome at the time, and many owned them, particularly those who travelled a lot as protection against bandits. Owning a sword would NOT make them an enemy of the state. Furthermore, if it was at least 2 of the disciples would have been arrested-and not Jesus since he was not carrying a sword. Since none of the disciples were arrested it's safe to assume they were not deemed enemies of the state, and no laws were broken by them owning swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 1, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 1, 2017 Pacifism and Militancy in church is difficult to discern. We have examples that if you take up the sword you will perish, "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword," (Matthew 26:52), and then we have examples of defending yourself, "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36). I think that one has to be called to be a warrior. It is not something to enter into lightly, because it has a cost package, "But don’t begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a building without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? Otherwise, you might complete only the foundation before running out of money, and then everyone would laugh at you. They would say, ‘There’s the person who started that building and couldn’t afford to finish it!" (Luke 14:28-30). Granted the context of Jesus words is about becoming one of his disciples, but I think the model works good for becoming a warrior. A warrior has to do something very antithetical to how we were made, kill people who are imagine of God (Genesis 1:27). If they don't do this, then evil people can kill God's people, so sometimes it is necessary, but the cost package is PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) and many other unseen and seen costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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