The Rapture by Terry James

[seeking the lost]

41 minutes ago, Ezra said:

But that is exactly what Scripture says in 1 Thessalonians. The Resurrection/Rapture is all of one piece, and has nothing to do with the Tribulation.

Exactly!  There cannot be a rapture before the tribulation because there is not a resurrection before the tribulation.

[Dennis1209]

Wonderful and informative article and well articulated, thank you so very much.

Your explanation and hermeneutics have been mine since the teachings I received growing up. There are just too many view points to mention on if there will be a harpazo and / or when. The main points that stand out for me is the purpose of judgement and the tribulation and we are not appointed to wrath. The tribulation is not to judge and test Christians, but to convince the nation of Israel (His people) to call upon the name of the Lord and repent, whom they have rejected on His first coming. All other earth-dwellers will likewise participate in God's wrath.

As you've so eloquently said, we Christians are not appointed to wrath and judgement in the tribulation. 

As you are well aware and know better than I, the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3:, and suddenly we have a symbolic and figurative twenty-four elders. Yep, I know that could represent the 12 Apostle's and the twelve tribes of Israel, and a hundred other explanations. I believe by the number used (24 = the Priesthood and Kings), among other scripture, these twenty-four elders represent the raptured Christian church prior to at least the second half of the tribulation, better known as the 'great tribulation'. 

In Jesus Name,

Dennis

[Guest Robert]

3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Exactly!  There cannot be a rapture before the tribulation because there is not a resurrection before the tribulation.

There cannot be a Rapture after or during the Tribulation, because there would be no one to repopulate the planet after the Tribulation. Keep in mind that in Scripture says those who sin in the Millennium would die at 100 years old or less, and those taken in the Rapture would not "marry nor be given in marriage, but be as the angels", so they cannot have children. And no one after being translated into immortality will be able to sin anymore. So, who then repopulates the earth with children if all of us are taken up after the Tribulation begins?

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Exactly!  There cannot be a rapture before the tribulation because there is not a resurrection before the tribulation.

Actually the "first resurrection" (which applies to the just or the saints) is in three phases, just like a Hebrew harvest (1 Cor 15:22-24).

1. The first fruits -- Christ

2. The main harvest -- the Resurrection/Rapture

3. The gleanings -- the Tribulation saints.

If there is a "first" resurrection, then there must also be a "second" resurrection, which is the resurrection of the unjust or unsaved. That is just before the Great White Throne judgment.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, RobertS said:

There cannot be a Rapture after or during the Tribulation, because there would be no one to repopulate the planet after the Tribulation. Keep in mind that in Scripture says those who sin in the Millennium would die at 100 years old or less, and those taken in the Rapture would not "marry nor be given in marriage, but be as the angels", so they cannot have children. And no one after being translated into immortality will be able to sin anymore. So, who then repopulates the earth with children if all of us are taken up after the Tribulation begins?

Hi RobertS,

How about the 'Two Witnesses' raptured toward the end of the 'Great Tribulation'? IMHO most likely Moses and Elijah, due to each one of the powers each held. Moses to turn water into blood, Elijah to shut the heavens from rain etc.. But I digress... 

To answer your question with my view, and I'm no expert... It's my understanding about 2/3 - 3/4 of the earth's population will be destroyed in the judgements of 'Great Tribulation". Just a remnant of Israel will remain. That leaves about maybe about 1-2 billion people on earth, assuming the earths population then will be 7-8 billion. If Christ didn't make His second coming and the judgements didn't immediately cease, no flesh would be saved. Just like prior to the days of Noah, human lives will be greatly extended, and because of that process the earth will exponentially increase in population in just 'one' generation. That's my view anyway.

 

Wonderful and informative article and well articulated, thank you so very much.

Your explanation and hermeneutics have been mine since the teachings I received growing up. There are just too many view points to mention on if there will be a harpazo and / or when. The main points that stand out for me is the purpose of judgement and the tribulation and we are not appointed to wrath. The tribulation is not to judge and test Christians, but to convince the nation of Israel (His people) to call upon the name of the Lord and repent, whom they have rejected on His first coming. All other earth-dwellers will likewise participate in God's wrath.

As you've so eloquently said, we Christians are not appointed to wrath and judgement in the tribulation. 

As you are well aware and know better than I, the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3:, and suddenly we have a symbolic and figurative twenty-four elders. Yep, I know that could represent the 12 Apostle's and the twelve tribes of Israel, and a hundred other explanations. I believe by the number used (24 = the Priesthood and Kings), among other scripture, these twenty-four elders represent the raptured Christian church prior to at least the second half of the tribulation, better known as the 'great tribulation'. 

In Jesus Name,

Dennis

[seeking the lost]

34 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Actually the "first resurrection" (which applies to the just or the saints) is in three phases, just like a Hebrew harvest (1 Cor 15:22-24).

1. The first fruits -- Christ

2. The main harvest -- the Resurrection/Rapture

3. The gleanings -- the Tribulation saints.

If there is a "first" resurrection, then there must also be a "second" resurrection, which is the resurrection of the unjust or unsaved. That is just before the Great White Throne judgment.

The scripture that I refer to is Revelation 20: 4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The resurrections that are referred to here in this passage are a guide.  It is not a good idea to switch the two or change the time of either which is clearly given.  The first resurrection applies only to those who did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.  This describes a closed set which means everyone not mentioned is excluded from the first resurrection.  The purpose of the first resurrection is for these to reign with Christ for a thousand years.

[seeking the lost]

2 hours ago, RobertS said:

There cannot be a Rapture after or during the Tribulation, because there would be no one to repopulate the planet after the Tribulation. Keep in mind that in Scripture says those who sin in the Millennium would die at 100 years old or less, and those taken in the Rapture would not "marry nor be given in marriage, but be as the angels", so they cannot have children. And no one after being translated into immortality will be able to sin anymore. So, who then repopulates the earth with children if all of us are taken up after the Tribulation begins?

You do know that the rapture comes after the resurrection don't you?  The rapture cannot come before that and there is no freedom to add one.  Therefore the rapture is at the end of the thousand years.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In the first resurrection no one goes up they are raised to reign on the earth with Christ.  The rest of the dead which includes everyone else that is not mentioned being raised in the first resurrection. 

 

[Guest Robert]

1) Actually, no resurrection is added, because "first" doesn't mean "first in time", but "first in kind", as in preeminence.  The righteous are resurrected before the wicked. And if there is no resurrection until after the end of the thousand years, then Scripture breaks itself with the resurrection of the two witnesses after the Beast has them killed. Also, Rev. 14 indicates that they will be "redeemed from the earth". Keep also in mind that Scripture never said before the First Advent that Jesus' coming would be in two parts: this is what threw the "religious machine" of His day when He did arrive.

2) There is no point in a Rapture if Christ is already on His way down, and Scripture is clear that there is a Rapture. God is not the author of confusion, nor is He blithering and disorganized.

3) You never answered my question: who then populates the Millennial kingdom and then rebels against the Lord? Unless you have translated saints rebelling against the Lord or they have the ability to have children (neither of which Scripture says). If the Rapture is anything but Pre-Trib, then Scripture has a lot of problems in it, as those who rebel are natural born on the Earth.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by RobertS

[Guest Robert]

On 10/14/2016 at 6:52 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Hi RobertS,

How about the 'Two Witnesses' raptured toward the end of the 'Great Tribulation'? IMHO most likely Moses and Elijah, due to each one of the powers each held. Moses to turn water into blood, Elijah to shut the heavens from rain etc.. But I digress... 

To answer your question with my view, and I'm no expert... It's my understanding about 2/3 - 3/4 of the earth's population will be destroyed in the judgements of 'Great Tribulation". Just a remnant of Israel will remain. That leaves about maybe about 1-2 billion people on earth, assuming the earths population then will be 7-8 billion. If Christ didn't make His second coming and the judgements didn't immediately cease, no flesh would be saved. Just like prior to the days of Noah, human lives will be greatly extended, and because of that process the earth will exponentially increase in population in just 'one' generation. That's my view anyway.

 

Wonderful and informative article and well articulated, thank you so very much.

Your explanation and hermeneutics have been mine since the teachings I received growing up. There are just too many view points to mention on if there will be a harpazo and / or when. The main points that stand out for me is the purpose of judgement and the tribulation and we are not appointed to wrath. The tribulation is not to judge and test Christians, but to convince the nation of Israel (His people) to call upon the name of the Lord and repent, whom they have rejected on His first coming. All other earth-dwellers will likewise participate in God's wrath.

As you've so eloquently said, we Christians are not appointed to wrath and judgement in the tribulation. 

As you are well aware and know better than I, the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3:, and suddenly we have a symbolic and figurative twenty-four elders. Yep, I know that could represent the 12 Apostle's and the twelve tribes of Israel, and a hundred other explanations. I believe by the number used (24 = the Priesthood and Kings), among other scripture, these twenty-four elders represent the raptured Christian church prior to at least the second half of the tribulation, better known as the 'great tribulation'. 

In Jesus Name,

Dennis

Thank you Dennis.

That's my point: if the Rapture happened during or after the Trib, the righteous would all be translated and the wicked would be all that remain, with no one in their natural bodies to have children during the Millennial Kingdom. God isn't going to allow the wicked into the Kingdom, so there would have to be righteous, saved people left at the end of the Tribulation. And that cannot happen if they are taken in a Rapture where they are transformed into immortal bodies.

And with that, I'm done.

-RobertS out

Edited October 16, 2016 by RobertS

[missmuffet]

On 10/15/2016 at 5:24 AM, Logoman said:

Matthew 24 
14: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. 

Isaiah 24
18: He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble. 
19: The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is violently shaken. 
20: The earth staggers like a drunken man, it sways like a hut; its transgression lies heavy upon it, and it falls, and will not rise again. 

Ezekiel 38 
19: For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 
20: the fish of the sea, and the birds of the air, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground. 
 
2 Peter 3 
10: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. 
11: Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 
12: waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 
13: But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 
 

Isaiah 66
15: "For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the stormwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 
16: For by fire will the LORD execute judgment, and by his sword, upon all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many. 

Matthew 5 
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Revelation 21 
1: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 
8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." 
 

Psalms 18
7: Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations also of the mountains trembled and quaked, because he was angry.
8: Smoke went up from his nostrils, and devouring fire from his mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from him.
 

Hot molten lava ( glowing coals ) will come marching down from the mountain tops like a big army burning everything in it's path. 

Joel 2
1: Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming, it is near, 
2: a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness! Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains a great and powerful people; their like has never been from of old, nor will be again after them through the years of all generations. 
3: Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them, but after them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them. 
4: Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses they run. 
5: As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains, like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble, like a powerful army drawn up for battle. 
6: Before them peoples are in anguish, all faces grow pale. 
7: Like warriors they charge, like soldiers they scale the wall. They march each on his way, they do not swerve from their paths. 
8: They do not jostle one another, each marches in his path; they burst through the weapons and are not halted. 
9: They leap upon the city, they run upon the walls; they climb up into the houses, they enter through the windows like a thief. 
10: The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. 
 

God had told Noah that He planned on destroying all flesh with the Earth. First the flood killed many and then the shaking Earth before hot molten lava ( Fire of God ) pours out to melt everything on earth including the crust into a Lake of Fire that smells of sulfur. 

Revelation 19
17: Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, 
18: to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." 
19: And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army. 
20: And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. 
21: And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. 
 

There won't be anyone left on earth called Christians, Muslims, Jews or any inhabitant who cannot keep themselves alive without the Breath of God. 

Way too long for me to read.