allofgrace Posted December 23, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) withdrawn Edited December 24, 2012 by allofgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted December 23, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Some believe the purpose of tongues was so the disciples could witness to people in a language they didn't know naturally, but that doesn't make sense, given the fact they began speaking in tongues in the upper room. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They began speaking in tongues and people of various languages heard them witnessing! From. The. Start. In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord. So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers. Paul gives the reason for tongues, a sign to unbelievers. So then tongues is a language that an unbeliever of a foreign land will recognize. Tongues is not a prayer language. Tongues is not for believers in their churches. Tongues is to witness to unbelievers. Not a prayer language? 1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. Only to witness to unbelievers? 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2012 Joshua: I agree, it is good and important to know what a person is actually asking for. Prophecy is often abused and manipulated because of a lack of understanding of prophecy. In this thread I'm not seeking to give deffinition because the context of this thread. Right now, I'm studying and seeking the Lord for better ways to define it and get a more clear understanding of it. My point wasn't to say Prophecy is this, but to say that if we are hung up on tongues we are hindered from seeking the greater gifts. OK...I understand. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2012 Eisleben Tongues is not a prayer language. Tongues is not for believers in their churches. Tongues is to witness to unbelievers. Scriptures have been provided throughout this thread that show that what you believe, as quoted above, is not the instructions we have received through those who wrote the New Testament. What you appear to not understand, is that tongues is both a sign and a gift according to scripture and absolutely still valid and in operation today. Your unbelief does not make this gift invalid. Butero makes a good point in response to you: Sorry, but the text doesn't say they were witnessing. It says the people heard "them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." It doesn't say they were witnessing. They could just as easily have been praying in tongues, and giving praise to the Lord. Just saying I got it wrong doesn't make it so, and the Bible never says they were witnessing to anyone. In addition to that, these people were speaking in tongues while in the upper room. That couldn't have been to witness to unbelievers, as those in the upper room were already believers in Christ, waiting on the promise of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Sorry, but the text doesn't say they were witnessing. It says the people heard "them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." It doesn't say they were witnessing. They could just as easily have been praying in tongues, and giving praise to the Lord. Just saying I got it wrong doesn't make it so, and the Bible never says they were witnessing to anyone. In addition to that, these people were speaking in tongues while in the upper room. That couldn't have been to witness to unbelievers, as those in the upper room were already believers in Christ, waiting on the promise of the Holy Spirit. They began speaking in tongues and people of various languages heard them witnessing! From. The. Start. You think they were praying? Speaking about the wonderful works of God in the native languages of various people hearing and you think they were praying, not witnessing? You think they were praying because they were in the upper room were you think others couldn't hear them but the Bible says others heard them? You think they were praying when Paul says tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not believers? You think they were praying when Paul says he doesn't pray in tongues because the mind is unfruitful, so he prays in the language he knows? You think they were praying when a group of Galileans were tasked to carry out the Great Commission in a very linguistically diverse region? You think they were praying because you're trying to make the Bible fit your experience where tongues carries no meaning. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 1:20-21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2012 Sorry, but the text doesn't say they were witnessing. It says the people heard "them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." It doesn't say they were witnessing. They could just as easily have been praying in tongues, and giving praise to the Lord. Just saying I got it wrong doesn't make it so, and the Bible never says they were witnessing to anyone. In addition to that, these people were speaking in tongues while in the upper room. That couldn't have been to witness to unbelievers, as those in the upper room were already believers in Christ, waiting on the promise of the Holy Spirit. They began speaking in tongues and people of various languages heard them witnessing! From. The. Start. You think they were praying? Speaking about the wonderful works of God in the native languages of various people hearing and you think they were praying, not witnessing? You think they were praying because they were in the upper room were you think others couldn't hear them but the Bible says others heard them? You think they were praying when Paul says tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not believers? You think they were praying when Paul says he doesn't pray in tongues because the mind is unfruitful, so he prays in the language he knows? You think they were praying when a group of Galileans were tasked to carry out the Great Commission in a very linguistically diverse region? You think they were praying because you're trying to make the Bible fit your experience where tongues carries no meaning. You know I don't really know you and you are relatively new here, and I don't want to be rude, but I'll just speak plainly You are deliberately IGNORING what scripture plainly states in order to make YOUR point: Acts 1: Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walkb from the city. 13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tonguesa as the Spirit enabled them. 5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.b” They were in that one room when the Holy Spirit fell on them and they began to speak in tongues...does scripture even state that they understood each other? According to the POV that believes tongues cannot be a prayer language (even though scripture plainly states it can be and is) I guess none of those gathered there should have dared to speak in tongues. Did someone interpret? NO...the ones who understood were those outside of the room in the streets below Those gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentecost were not witnessing...they were waiting for the Holy Spirit that Jesus had promised them. Now, even a person who does not believe that the gifts are for today...and I grew up in a church like that and have spoken to many many people who do not believe they are for today...will acknowledge what scripture states regarding the Holy Spirit, I have never ever ever heard any single one of those unbelieving people tell me that the disciples and others were witnessing. The Bible does not state the believers were witnessing. You have made that up to suit your own belief. They were gathered in one accord and praying and praising God when the Holy Spirit fell. It was not until AFTER that Peter went out and TESTIFIED of what had happened and gave scripture to back up what the people in the streets had heard. E-ben, you have no idea what you are talking about. You do not believe in the gifts and you do not believe people still speak in tongues You might do yourself some good and pay attention to the following from Mike: some of you can be extremely blessed by taking heed, and get rid of the doubt and unbelief. You don't want years to pass, only to find out the Lord said you ignored your answer here and many other times he has put people in your path to tell you. It's a price you can't afford, and I know from experience. Jesus Is Lord. I advise you that what you are doing amounts to grieving the Holy Spirit and perhaps you should stop now. For myself, I am going to stop addressing your posts in this thread God bless you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2012 Sorry, but the text doesn't say they were witnessing. It says the people heard "them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." It doesn't say they were witnessing. They could just as easily have been praying in tongues, and giving praise to the Lord. Just saying I got it wrong doesn't make it so, and the Bible never says they were witnessing to anyone. In addition to that, these people were speaking in tongues while in the upper room. That couldn't have been to witness to unbelievers, as those in the upper room were already believers in Christ, waiting on the promise of the Holy Spirit. They began speaking in tongues and people of various languages heard them witnessing! From. The. Start. You think they were praying? Speaking about the wonderful works of God in the native languages of various people hearing and you think they were praying, not witnessing? You think they were praying because they were in the upper room were you think others couldn't hear them but the Bible says others heard them? Eisleben, there is no way to know what they were thinking they were doing in the Upper Room, just that they were being led by the Holy Spirit, obeying His guidance. Trying to prove one thing over another is fruitless. Take scripture for what it says and don't add to or subtract from it. If you read the words in context, you will see that they were speaking in other tongues, but when those who "heard" them speak, they had no idea what it meant. Do you think they had glass windows to close and insulation within their walls to muffle the sound? Acts 2:1-12 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?” You think they were praying when Paul says tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not believers? When one speaks in a group setting, it is for the unbeliever. You think they were praying when Paul says he doesn't pray in tongues because the mind is unfruitful, so he prays in the language he knows? 1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all You think they were praying when a group of Galileans were tasked to carry out the Great Commission in a very linguistically diverse region? You think they were praying because you're trying to make the Bible fit your experience where tongues carries no meaning. It is very clear that you have no true understanding what tongues is about. Perhaps you should stop gazing and start studying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexanderJ Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1993 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Tongues is NOT for believers, but for unbelievers. This statement is incorrect, if you are saying that tongues cannot ever be used in the Church for edification of the Saints. When the person speaking in tongues has an interpreter, it is edifying to the church. 1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying....If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexanderJ Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1993 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Tongues are primarily for the benefit of unbelievers, but they have a secondary benefit in the church. Speaking the language of an unbeliever without having personally studied and without personal understanding of the language is indeed a sign to the unbeliever. It is not of any use to the believer who speaks my own language because he cannot understand it any more than I can. This is why Paul says: 1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. However, if I provide an interpreter, this problem is solved, and my words are edifying to the believers. 1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 24, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hi OneLight We may both be wrong but one thingis for sure, we both can't be right on the tongues question. My understanding is that the "perfect" in I Cor.13 does not refer to the 2nd coming of Jesus but rather the completion of the writing of the NT. The word "perfect" to my knowledge was not translated with the capital Perfect. This indicates very strongly that none of the translaters of any version understood the "perfect" to mean the 2nd coming of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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