speaking in tounges

[webb]

Thanks Onelight. I have lots to learn about using the internet .

[enoob57]

Steven!!

2 Ti 3:17

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

NKJV

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: (The Power of the anointed one, and in his anointing)

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Steven, answer why we have the information to walk as the anointed, preach the Word, cast out devils, help those in need, and can be perfect in him. Why do we need to obey NOW, and follow God, getting his work done? Why can we now be perfect in Him?

Why is all that needed?

If you know that, then you know that Which is perfect has yet to come.

Jesus Is Lord.

You completely skated around the issue of the text The Scripture itself is able to.... the Scripture is that which is abled to make the man complete.

At this time of the writing most of the letters/copies were circulated around in the Churches as these men were recognized as authorized by God to speak

for God... the last of the letters written awaiting the Apostle John's final Revelation of Christ and eternity accompanied by the great seal and His unseen hand

in the binding of the New Covenant of God's Word... now if that is abled to make complete men who place it in the preeminence of all that they are! It seems

reasonable that which is abled to make complete a man to do the will of God must be a perfect thing. Love, Steven

[OneLight]

Thanks Onelight. I have lots to learn about using the internet .

Another use of the quote function is that you can reply to the person you are quoting in the same post as the quote. Just ensure you write after the last code, which would be an opening bracket "[" then the code "/quote" ended by a closing bracket "]".

[allofgrace]

Thank you Allofgrace, I refer to your post 519. I didn't address it fuller because of the complexity of the subject and lack of time. I shall give a more thorough address. Its always my desire to keep posts brief.

The 2 witnesses are the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks, Rev.11:3,4. This means that the 2 witnesses are symbolically represented by olive trees and lampstands. Remember, Revelation is a book of symbols. The purpose of the candlestick is to give light ( Matt.5:15). Anything that gives light may figuratively be called a candlestick. Thus, the 7 churches (1:20) are called candlesticks. Compare that to what David called the word of God in Psalm 119:105.

Lampstands (in marginal reading) can ONLY give light through the oil they contained, thus the things which furnished the oil are called the witnesses. You will find a simular symbol in Zech.4:2-14, with but one candlestick with 7 lamps. The olive trees emptied their oil into the lampstands. They are explained to mean the 2 anointed ones (vs.14). Zerubbabel was told that what he would do would not be by the might of his army but by God's Spirit, vs.6. Thus, the meaning is that just as the oil supplied to the lampstands by the olive trees gave light, so what he did would be by direction of the Spirit of God. Thus in Rev.11 the thought is the light given by the Bible is due to the fact that it was spoken by men inspired by God's Spirit and this is the teaching of II Pet.1:19-21.

The word "witness" means one who testifies, and testimony is what is said. The Bible is divided into 2 parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Those 2 testaments are witnesses in the sense that they present to us God's testimony. Inasmuch as the Bible is of 2 testaments, that is, 2 testimonies they represent God's testimony.

At this point I pause, for if what is presented here is not of logic and most of all scriptural then for me to continiue is not only a waste of time but pedantic.

God bless

I would not call it nit picking to stick to the context of the word of God. It is not as complex as your explanation if one just reads the text. I can see it will be of no benefit to continue on with this discussion. Have a good night.

[firestormx]

I believe it may be best understood by identifying the 2 witnesses as the Old Testament and the New Testament. The 2 witnesses are identified in the chapter as also being the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks.

May I ask who or what you believe the witnesses are?

God bless

I believe they are what the bible says they are, 2 witnesses. I believe the context clearly says they are people. now let me ask you a qustion. If it is the old and new testament and not 2 people who are witnesses, then how can they be killed, or there bodies be left in the street, or God raise them from the dead and call them up to heaven in the sight of men. I think you are taking the verses out of context. they are 2 witnesses who's 3 and a half years of ministry is labeled as prophecy. which is biblical proof that the gifts are in operation at that time. so the gifts couldn't have ceased or passed away. Last question. It is improper use of scripture to take 1 verse and build a doctrine around it, that isn't supported by other scriptures. What and where is the other biblical verses that state the gifts, like speaking in tongues, have passed away?

Thank you and May God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

[enoob57]

I am not really concerned with what someone considers more scriptural. I just know that on the day of Pentecost, when the disciples were filled with the Spirit, while in the upper room, they began to speak in tongues. They were not preaching to anyone, as they all were of the same language. When Cornelius and his household was filled, they spoke in tongues, and they were not preaching to anyone. You can believe what you will, but I know for a fact that tongues are real, and that which is perfect has not come yet.

Again I come only to understand outside of the gifting you speak of...

How else can I understand else I examine the Scripture and your responses?

You say the perfect has not come. Then loved one how can this be so?

2 Ti 3:17

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

NKJV

The concept of complete here is as KJV interpreted (perfect) and one only needs to ask one's

self is (if?) complete lacks nothing --- so it is _ _ _ _ _ _ t ya think???

Also the word used is

artios NT:739

(ar'-tee-os); from NT:737; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:

KJV - perfect.

and not found anywhere else in the New Testament! Rather curios wouldn't you think

Love, Steven

If you go back to Acts 2:37-39, it says,

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

That which is perfect cannot be the completed Bible, based on this passage of scripture alone. That which is perfect is Jesus when he returns. Some have created a doctrinal position that it is the completed canon in order to come up with a way of saying the gifts have passed away.

As far as the Greek word for complete goes, I hardly find that convincing evidence that you can take that and prove "that which is perfect" is the canon of scripture? I see what you are saying, but it is quite a stretch. This has been where the controversy has existed from the start. One school of thought is that which is perfect is the complete Bible, and the other school of thought is it is Jesus when he comes back to set up his Kingdom. It just doesn't make sense to say it is the completed Bible when it was finished by the Apostle John, who was alive at the time Acts was written, and it says in Acts that the promise is to you, your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord shall call. God is still calling people, and will continue to right up to the tribulation period. Given this alone, it makes far more sense to believe that which is perfect is the Lord Jesus at his return.

The great seal God put at the end of The Revelation is positive to this thought of complete here and is further support to the Scripture being the perfect that has come...

Besides~ because the tongues is outside of testing of the spirits for nothing can be tested I am left with only the Scriptures which cannot verify because it is subjective and the objective

response to the Scriptures is impossible... it actually is forcing me to substantiate outside of or apart from Scripture faith and this alone I think is key to understanding the contrary

aspect of this practice for faith is of hearing the Scriptures ONLY! Love, Steven

[Hall7]

I wonder if speaking in tongues is an actual language. I'm curious to know if the words in tongues would be the same as other messages in tongues. In other words, what if we were to compare English translations to tongue messages and compared the same key words. Would the words be the same or is it always different? For example Would the word "God" in tongues always pronounced the same in tongues?

In the Bible, tongues were actual human languages. At Pentecost, the Disciples spoke the real languages of a diverse people who had come to Jerusalem. When Paul speaks to the Corinthian Church he points out that all the languages of the world have meaning.

What you suggest would be child's play, if you had samples of real tongues and interpretations. But, Pentecostals don't speak with actual languages, so you can't develop objective translations from their tongues.

But, if you had real tongues and interpretation.... for example:

........Tongue: Wayyome elohim yehi owr wayhi owr

Interpretation: God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Just with this one short verse, see how easy it is to get an idea of what the individual words in the tongue mean? The more words you have, the easier it gets. Just one more verse would allow you to correctly identify which word means "God." With a few hundred words, you could make working translations of any future use of this tongue without anyone's gift of interpretation.

(The tongue is phonetic Hebrew.)

Yes it's what I meant, thank you for explaining it better I'm not very good at explaining things.

[Hall7]

Although I'm still a little skeptical on whether tongues always sound the same or not. If it is a language that was designed by God for no one to understand besides understanding it through interpretations, I would think that it would always sound different to keep us from learning it through grammar. Also it says in the Bible that it is a gift, some have it and some don't. So I doubt that we can acquire a gift of God through trying to learn it in human language. Don't you think so?

[Guest]

Though

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 1 Corinthians 13

[Botz]

....... No one that believes in this prayer language which they do not understood has as yet tried to explain how it benefits them if they do not know what is being said. I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified. That just makes more sense to me. If anyone feels otherwise, that is their business but that does not mean on open forums and in public that I have to agree with them. After all, Paul also said, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I would be interested to know where you believe this 'prayer language' that some of us claim to have been gifted with comes from?

My personal experience of tongues/languages in my private devotions goes like this:

1. When I engage G-d in tongues, I am using a supernatural gift and I know by faith my spirit is communicating with Him.

2. As I speak I also seek to let my mind connect to my spirit so that I can get the gist of what direction my prayer is taking.

Brother Botz when you say your mind involved is it sensing direction of the emotional context?

What do you mean by gist?

The Bible talks about the difficulty man has in praying and G-d has given the Holy Spirit to help us pray according to His will and

not our own will. I am not saying this always means praying in tongues, but praying in the Spirit, but certainly my own experience

of this gift has shown me clearly why it edifies, because in answer to your question Steven...it is very much along the lines of my

mind being led by my spirit as it responds to the leading G-d initiates.

By 'gist' I mean a general sense. Sometimes I find my spirit is very provoked over an issue/situation/person, and my prayers in

tongues might become loud and forceful, or I might begin to weep....so while this is happening I am open to the Holy Spirit in my

heart to give me understanding in my mind, so that I can see something of what I am now praying about.

At other times I will know what I want/must pray about, but I don't know where to start, or I might be tired etc...so I start by praying

in tongues, and it wakens my spirit and my mind follows so to speak. I have never doubted once since receiving this gift many years

ago, that it helps one to pray effectively...and that many times I don't really know what I am praying, but I believe it makes sense to

the L-rd, and thus I exercise faith continuously, knowing I am accomplishing something in the Spirit....that is where my confidence lies

and is part of the method in which an individual is edified. (because they know they are exercising a faith muscle).

3. When my mind becomes focused and follows my spirit I begin to speak words to the L-rd in my own language.

How do you know these are words if they contain no defined meaning to you?

Is this known to you by association- normal use as conversation with others / now as phonetics from your mouth to God?

For the first question, please see my reply above.

I don't really understand the second part my chum, you will need to articulate a little clearer.

4. If I am praying for a sustained period, it can become repetitive and if I want to continue in prayer emotionally and passioinately

it becomes difficult to sustain the impetus...so I carry on in tongues, sometimes singing, sometimes worshipping, and often even as

I am doing this, my mind is refreshed, I get clarity I get further direction and therefore I pray in my own language.

5. By the end of things I have gone through an experience that engages my whole being and has made use of the Helper whose

specific function is especially to aid me in praying more effectively and I am aware of the spiritual dimension in which I have been

operating by the grace of G-d, and I know that He has made, difficult, laborious, even dull prayer times into something dynamic

that also edifies my inner man.

This edification is it an emotional sensation based on the experienced control outside of yourself assuring you of God's involment with you?

It's a combination of things I guess....I received this gift long before I had a clue about the theological implications..when I was immersed

in the Holy Spirit I praised G-d in Tongues quite naturally, and was so full of joy...it went on unrestrained for some considerable time

late at night until I was politely asked to shut up. Since then it has been a constant source of thanks, and my personal evidence of the

effective presence of G-d in my life. This gift, like any other, does not guarantee anything...certainly not spirituality or character, but

I have had a grateful heart for this gift virtually every day of my new-born life. Joy, thanks, gratitude are all part of the way in which I

think the gift edifies....this is just to me as an individual....think what benefits can come to the Body from the other gifts?

Thank you for your openess about your understanding and practice I know it comes from a heart of love! So Please

if this seems the least bit offensive or to clinical in you regards please feel free to ignore it Botz as you know I consider you my

brother in Christ! Love, Steven

Hope this helps clarify...all the best. Botz