What's Iraq really like today?

[AnotherTraveler]

So, as you say, the US went into Iraq to get rid of Saddam and his possible terror links. Therefore, if the US perceives a threat existing within any other nation, it will go in there, regardless of the benefit/harm to the local population?

I did not say that we went into Iraq to get rid of Saddam. I pointed out hidden stratigies and tactics, and it so happened that a reasonable method of prosecuting the war on terror involved Iraq prior to other countries.

We will absolutely attack a perceived threat, and the first and last consideration of the president must be the welfare of the USA above the national interests of any other nation. This sounds brutal because it is, war is brutal, but the only way to wage war is intending to win, and all other considerations, including local population, are secondary.

I think the benefit/harm is regarded, but in proportion to the situation. If someone was preparing to launch a nuke, yet the nuke was sitting in the middle of a city of 200,000 people, in a daycare full of children, in a mosque or church, we would attack this impending threat, realizing that there will be civilian casualties, and destruction of religious buildings, but the potential of millions being nuked outweighs the things that we have just regarded, acknowledged, but still had to decide in US interests.

I don't want a president that does only what is popular in the USA or in the world, but a president that chooses in the best interests of the country as he understands it, and he stands and faces the music for his decisions, right or wrong. I happen to agree with many of his decisions, including Iraq.

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Thank you Jon, that's a nice thing to say.

Edited October 14, 2004 by AnotherTraveler

[jcm]

Unbelievable. Does everyone who agrees with the Iraq war feel this way?

[AnotherTraveler]

jcm,

I was at ground zero, this was no small thing that was done, but it is small compared to nukes, biological, and chemical attacks. Any of these properly executed, and the deaths will be in the tens and even hundreds of thousands, this can't be ignored.

What is the alternative? Do you have one?

[AnotherTraveler]

jcm,

I noticed your profile lists Manila. Have you read the history of your country? Do you realize that a single nuke could render 1/2 your country uninhabitable for hundreds of years?

Your country has been struggling with terrorists and rebels for many years now, and they go after them, and the fight is not pretty, and hopefully no bystanders die, but they do, yet what choice do your leaders have?

I would also point out that the freedom that your country enjoys was purchased with the blood of many American solders as well as your own countrymen, and warfare that was brutal gave you the choice to be your own country (which you chose) or to become a state in the USA (which was offered).

Edited October 14, 2004 by AnotherTraveler

[jcm]

I am not belittling the suffering caused by terror. Nor have I given my stand on the war on terror. It only saddens me to read

all other considerations, including local population, are secondary

and

If someone was preparing to launch a nuke, yet the nuke was sitting in the middle of a city of 200,000 people, in a daycare full of children, in a mosque or church, we would attack this impending threat, realizing that there will be civilian casualties, and destruction of religious buildings

.

Such method of prosecuting warfare can only cause more grief and suffering. If war is to be made upon an evil enemy then his evil methods must not be used.

Take the second paragraph I quoted from your post. Would you still advocate attack on said city if it was on US soil? Probably not.

It weighs heavily that US civilian life is held by you to be more valuable than foreign civilian life.

[AnotherTraveler]

If I was president, and the situation was as described, on US soil, I would still order the attack, there is no choice, it is the lesser of two evils, and I agree it is sad.

I love life, and I love people, and I have a great respect and appreciation for peoples from 3rd world countries, but the fact remains that war is brutal, but to not engage the enemy only emboldens the enemy, and makes the loss of life far worse by avoiding the hard choices.

[jcm]

Yes, but of course love and respect end when you decide to invade.

edited for grammar

Edited October 14, 2004 by jcm

[AnotherTraveler]

jcm,

Today they are exhuming hundreds of bodies from a mass grave in Iraq where Saddam murdered perhaps 2000 people, at this one grave alone. If Saddam were still there, he would be raping (his sons took all the girls from entire villages) and murdering at his pleasure still.

Most of the people in Iraq are very thankful to no longer live in fear. In Afganistan they just voted for their own leader, and many millions tregistered and voted.

Many that sit in comfort in other places with no vested interest can condemn the motives of others, but two of my sons went to Iraq, and one is still there, and they are heroic to me, for they are risking their lives to make life better for the people in the USA and the people in Iraq.

[jcm]

jcm,

I noticed your profile lists Manila. Have you read the history of your country? Do you realize that a single nuke could render 1/2 your country uninhabitable for hundreds of years?

Your country has been struggling with terrorists and rebels for many years now, and they go after them, and the fight is not pretty, and hopefully no bystanders die, but they do, yet what choice do your leaders have?

I would also point out that the freedom that your country enjoys was purchased with the blood of many American solders as well as your own countrymen, and warfare that was brutal gave you the choice to be your own country (which you chose) or to become a state in the USA (which was offered).

Ok saw this just now. A few things.

1. I am not aware of any serious offer by the US to make RP a US state. As far as I know that is just an urban legend. (Often repeated here.) Anyway, I believe it wouldn't have benefited either country.

2. Yes, I am aware what a nuke could do to us. That's why I am wary of any policy that says 'US interests first, local population last.' That policy implies you would nuke us if you felt like it.

3. Yes, we have a terrorist and rebel problem. Yes, bystanders die. Yet, the situation is exacerbated by military abuse of the civilian population. They intimidate and torture local residents. They bomb and shell indiscriminately. Does this help our cause? No. Undoubtedly the rebels do this too, but when the military does it it only helps to swell rebel ranks.

4. (I don't know why you brought this up.) I will not deny that much American blood was shed here against the Japanese in WWII. Heroism was displayed by both Filipino and American soldiers. But may I also remind you of the countless Filipino and American lives lost due to your invasion in 1898? We were fighting for our independence from Spain when you, due to your 'Benevolent Assimilation' policy decided that we would make a nice colony. Spain, seeing they would lose against both you and us, decided to 'sell' us to you for $20M. This included other territories and concessions. What followed was a betrayal by America. Under pretense of helping us kick the Spaniards out, you took over. Do you know who fired the first shot? You did. On our soil. Did your history teacher tell you what happened in Samar? How it was turned into a 'howling wilderness'? How the American general there gave orders to 'Kill and burn! The more you kill and burn the more you please me!' How he gave orders that EVERYONE 10 years old and above were to be treated as enemy combatants, men, women and children? I don't know why you brought it up, but PLEASE don't tell me how we 'owe you our freedom'. And PLEASE don't ask me if I've 'read my country's history'. I find it insulting.

edited for spelling

Edited October 14, 2004 by jcm

[AnotherTraveler]

(I don't know why you brought this up.) I will not deny that much American blood was shed here against the Japanese in WWII. Heroism was displayed by both Filipino and American soldiers.

I'll tell you why I brought it up. You feel that you have a right to find fault with the USA, ok, fine, but this is a two way street.

Things that occurred more than a century ago, horrid as they were, were neither you nor I, nor any that we know. All that did so in 1898 are dead, and I was not involved, and neither were you.

I don't know why you brought it up, but PLEASE don't tell me how we 'owe you our freedom'. And PLEASE don't ask me if I've 'read my country's history'. I find it insulting.

Yes, many Filipino's were heroic in fighting for their homeland, and they would have certainly failed if the USA had not also been heroic in fighting for your homeland, and sorry to disappoint you, but the freedom you enjoy today was purchased by American blood and Filipino, and the generation that fought side by side with US soldiers will tell you that, if you ask them.

You'd be speaking Japanese and be a minority in your own homeland, if they bothered to let you live, which is really not a certainty, were it not for US assistance. Your short term appreciation misses this fact, as do the French, the Germans, the Russians, and the Koreans.

I am not trying to insult you, but point out to me, please, where your countrymen went out and fought and died for the freedom of anyone other than your own. It is not a big thing to be heroic in your own interests, but when you acknowledge that US soldiers did fight and die on your behalf, but in the same breath claim that the freedom that they purchased for you with their blood was not valuable, I find that insulting.

I don't claim that you owe us anything, but I guarentee you that if you are attacked by a greater power, your long term friendship with the USA will be remembered, and the ONLY ones in the world that might respond to your plight is the USA, and your leaders would be pleading for our intervention because they KNOW that we don't try to keep the countries that we invade.

If you had to fight the USA for your independence, you might have a case, but READ YOUR HISYORY, then, after you remember the facts, you might just be a little less quick to be insulted, and a little more understanding. Read what the Japanese were doing to your people, then get back to me on this.