Immortality of the Soul?

[Guest idied2]

18

[larryt]

Hi idied2,

Let us take a close look at this passage.

18

[Guest idied2]

vs 18 says that Christ was made alive by the Spirit.

vs 19 By which(the Spirit) he(Christ) went and preached.

I think it says that Christ went and preached.

CHRIST was brought into this world by the SPIRIT of GOD and brought back to life from death by the SPIRIT of GOD. The SPIRIT in CHRIST was also the SPIRIT of GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of GOD.

Before CHRIST was Born of the virgin birth. HE was melchezedeck King of peace.

Who in the same SPIRIT of GOD was the LORD who walked in the garden.

Ge 14:18

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

Ps 110:4

The Lord has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

Heb 5:6

As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";

Heb 5:10

called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"

Heb 6:20

where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 7:1

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Heb 7:10

for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

Heb 7:11

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:15

And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest

Heb 7:17 For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

Heb 7:21

(for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn And will not relent, 'You are a priest forever* According to the order of Melchizedek' "),+

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Old Timer]

Well, folks, I think we are drifting far a field from the original intent of this thread, that being, do we

[Old Timer]

Let

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

While I have about 10min before class. Its great to see we have good discussion going here. I"ll try to answer as much as I can remember within the span of the time I have.

Firstly, my definition of death (which isn't the soul basis of the argument and never was because scripture is) is that life ceases, the brain shuts down and breathing stops...you know...dead...

Secondly to deal with the famous "immortaliy" verses in Luke w/thief on the cross.

Firstly let us look at the passage

Luke 23:

42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (1) Paradise."

Notice firstly that the thief is saying "remember WHEN you come in your kingdom" Obviously the thief knew of the Kingdom to come and the ressuection (again see 1Thes 4:15 to the end) In the Lord's Prayer "Thy Kingdom come" Not that it is immidate but will COME in the future

Secondly:

Jesus answered: "You ask me to remember you then, but I say unto you now . . . " (Luke 23:43). This repunctuation is not merely tinkering with the text. The Greek word "semeron" translated "today", "this day" is used as a term of emphasis.1 In the following references "semeron" qualifies this preceding verb: Luke 2:11; 22:34; Acts 20:26; 26:29; 2 Cor. 3:14,15.

Luke 2

11 for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.

Luke 22

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, until thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Acts 20

26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

2 Corinthians 3

14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ.

15 But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart.

Rotherham in his translation places the comma after "this day" and there are a large number of passages in the Septuagint translation in which the Greek construction corresponds to that of Luke 23:43: "I say unto you this day" corresponds to the emphatic, "I testify unto you this day", e.g. Deut. 6:6; 7:11; 8:1; 10:13; 11:8,13,28.

You see because there is no puncaution in the Greek text, the translated just added the comma where ever they wanted to. However, it is far more likely that the passage reads "Assurley I say to you this day, you will be with me in paradise" Plus the context that the thief says "remember whe WHEN you come to your kingodm" proves this, as well as it is a popular phrase used eleswhere by Christ and by Pual.

Someone here stated that scritpure must be consistant, I agree and this is proof.

Further proof is found when CHrist says in John 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven

Even more proof. If what you believe is true about righouts going immidaetly to Heaven when the die, then why did David not go there? He was a man after God's own heart:

Acts 2

34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Now lastley to deal with the Philipains verse. Clearly from 1Corth15 Pual believes and hopes stongly in the ressurection, so his saying that "he would rather depart and be with Christ" doesn't hold wieght for proof of immortal soul. We do not know the time when he "will be with Christ" But we DO KNOW that Pual hopes in the ressurection

1 Corinthians 15

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.The "sound of the last trump" is quoted in Revolations but just for the extra umph

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It is now time for class, I'll be back later to post.

Good disucssion, thanks.

[Guest savedbythepassion]

A rebuttal to those who propagate the idea that upon death of the body (referred to as 'sleep' in scripture) the spirtual part of your being sleeps or dies, only to be revived by the Holy Spirit on the return of Christ.

Jesus has this to say:

Luke 16:19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

You should note that in the spiritual realm after death of the body, there is a place where consciousness exists. Jesus is referring here to Sheol/Hades. The unrighteous soul is separated by a gulf from the righteous souls in Hades. The righteous souls inhabit the realm of Paradise/Abraham's Bosom. Realize that this consiousness of the soul is taking place before the last day or Second Coming as the rich man begs Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his bretheren who are still alive in body.

After the fulfillment of the Christ covenent, Jesus removed the captive souls of the righteous from Hades, now redeemed through his suffering, death and resurrection and led them into the presence of God in heaven at his ascension. These were the first men to enter the presence of God other than Christ himself.

The souls of the unrighteous remain in Hades to this day, awaiting the last day and after judgement, Sin, Death, Satan and his followers, and Hades itself will be cast into the lake of fire, Gehenna. It is at this last day that the resurrection or awakening of our glorified bodies occurs. This is not the day that our Spirits re-awaken, as they never sleep.

[Guest savedbythepassion]

Is scripture not replete with instances of prohibitions regarding Spiritists and those who consult the dead? Did not Saul seek the help of a Spiritist and successfully conjure up the spirit of the prophet Samuel?

I believe this puts to bed the notion of soul sleep, pardon the pun.

In Christ.

[Leonard]

You are correct of course, savedbythepassion; unfortunately 'None so blind, as he who refuses to see.'

[apothanein kerdos]

We must remember that neither belief is mutually exclusive. SRMF...this should be something your professors teach you is that these beleifs can exsist at the same time if we want to make the entire debate easier...of course it gets complicated when you throw in the fact that God is not limited to time. Thus, the soul could die or sleep but at the same time be in heaven with God, due to the timeless situation. Also, just picking at your scriptures offered on this page (I too have class in a bit and can't spend too much time on this)

BTW, good point on the use of Greek puncuation...many, many, many people ignore this or don't even know about it.