Joyce Meyer

[LOVE SONGS]

LOVE SONGS

I normally like your post....... Just seems out of character to be judgmental like that. I know about Brother Copeland. The man is 76 some years old, still flys his own jet, still keeps an insane schedule. He literately Paid for a lot of things our Church has, started I don't know how many Churches.

I know last time he came to visit us...... I was very inspired....... All his people were at our Church setting up for the meeting. He had several semi's with Jesus Is Lord on the side, and a huge satellite thingy they stuck in the Parking lot. All his people were awesome, and so gracious.

I thought, now this is really how to do things for God. Kenneth uses his own Movie camera's, Own sound system, so we put ours away to make room.

I think about the response David would have gotten to call everyone together to build the Temple. God would not let him actually build it, but David put all the wealth he had into it. Billions by today's standard. When Solomon finished that nice Temple for God it was the Most expensive thing built at that time.

I am sure many on this forum, had they been there at the time would have been blogging on stone tablets about the terrible waste and love of money David and Solomon had. I am sure many here would have been saying that God could have gotten by with a shack, and the money used to feed the poor.

I just hope I am not embarrassed by some folks here when we get to heaven. Our Fathers streets are paved with Gold. I can just picture people like Sevenseas running to the Throne room and giving God a what for.......... Wasting all that wonderful Gold to make street pavement...... Shame on God......

Jesus Is Lord.

Do you know what kind of job he has, other than preaching ? How did he earn his money ?

For I know that some pastors, have to hold a side job , to earn their honest pay.

You said you knew Kenneth Copeland .... I am asking about him , not you.

[LOVE SONGS]

OH.................. Sorry.... Kenneth.

I can tell you that Kenneth Hates any type of lawn work. He was a professional pilot until he got a Job with Oral Roberts flying him around. He then went into ministry, while him and Gloria shard the bags of potatoes they bought to just have something to eat. Now he has a cattle ranch, but most of his time is traveling and keeping up on Believers Voice of Victory. It's a lot of work since you have to film all 5 for the week in one day.

Knowing Kenneth, I don't think he does housework even. Gloria did most of that. I( do know that Brother Copeland and his ministry has blessed me tremendously. I am very thankful for Kenneth.

Jesus Is Lord.

Well , that is great that God blessed him with.... being a pilot ,a good job,.... before he was called, and had his own ministry.

[ayin jade]

A former moderator here posted something a few years ago that yall should read. I will quote the posts below.

After some prayer on the matter, and some burdening from the Lord, I decided to go ahead and post some of my experiences working for TBN in the early 90�s. But before I do this, I would like to say that it is my belief that there are some genuine seekers and lovers of the Lord working for Trinity Broadcasting. Working there I found some steadfast believers, ones that I have prayed for, and sincerely hope made it out from there.

I was regenerated in November of 1990. As a new believer, I had a passion for the Lord, and a great love and appetite for His Word. Many of you know that it was my wife, whom I was courting at the time that led me to the Lord. Anyway, it was during our courtship that I moved from Los Angeles to Orange County (Santa Ana). Lynn was already working at TBN at the time, having gotten the job through some friends of her that were already working there. And I also got a job there through the same friends.

My total time of employment at Trinity Broadcasting Network was roughly 8-9 months. During this time, I worked in the pulling room, accounting, data entry, the warehouse, and during telethons I worked the prayer lines and in data entry posting pledges, and doing supervisory work. It was probably during the last 3 months of my employment there that I began witnessing the real hypocrisy and evil that dwelled under the surface of this whitewashed �ministry of God.�

Now, before you start to wonder whether these words are coming from anger or not, I have to tell you that my experience with TBN left me very jaded, and very opposed to religion in general. You see, I once believed in what TBN was doing. I believed their doctrine, and I fully supported the ministry. I even went on the set three times a year anointing every part of the set and praying with Paul and Jan that TBN would have a prosperous year. But it was the Lord that led me out. It was the Lord that revealed what TBN really was under the surface. And this is what I want to share with you here. If there is only one who can be set free by reading this brief testimonial, then it was worth bringing all this back to the surface.

Here is how the operations of TBN�s business office work. On one side of the street of Michelle Drive, Tustin, CA. there are the production offices and the studios. Studio A is where Praise the Lord was shot at the time, and the huge telephone banks where the �prayer partners� (usually little old ladies) worked and received donations. On the other side of the street is the business office. The business office is where all the mail is delivered from around the world. The mail is sorted, the donations are input into the computer system, and accounting keeps track of it all. Also on the business side is the warehouse where all the �love gifts� are stored, packaged and sent off to folks who send money for them. All the �love gifts� are made in China, by the way. If you ever see one displayed that is supposedly �holy oil from Jerusalem� be assured that it�s scented oil from China.

The Pulling Room:

The pulling room is the first stop for TBN�s mail. This is where I first worked. The room has roughly 20-30 workers who�s job it is to: A) Open the mail, B) Pull out any checks/ cash donations, stamp the envelope they were sent in with the amount of the donation and C) Separate any letters, prayer requests, or letters to Paul & Jan or any of the other assorted guests of the show. On any given day, I would pull & post roughly between $200,000 and $300,000, and daily deposits in the bank averaged in the millions. Any check pulled that was $1,000 or more was sent straight to the pulling room supervisor for funds verification. Any puller that pulled a check for $5,000 or more got a special honor by having his or her name placed on a chalkboard with the amount under his or her name - After the funds were verified, of course.

The Reading Room:

All letters go to the reading room where there were literally 30-40 little ladies between 50 and 70 sat and read each letter. Letters were not responded to unless there was a special �personal & confidential� notice on the envelope for Paul and Jan Crouch. The reader�s responsibility was to check the amount of the check and scan each letter to determine if the �partner� requested a �love gift� or a newsletter. Petitions for prayer were ignored. Now, consider how many people write into TBN requesting prayer. Once the reading ladies were finished with the letters, they were sent downstairs to the shredder, which I had the honor of manning on several occasions. Shredded letters were picked up by a guy who used to recycle shred paper and use it to stuff beanbags and packaging boxes with; kinda� interesting.

Data Entry:

I was promoted to data entry from the pulling room. Data entry was the next stop for the envelopes; which had been stamped with the check information and an indication of what gift was requested and whether the �partner� was to receive a newsletter or not. Data entry clerks (roughly 30-50 at any given time) whiled away endless hours creating, updating, and entering information into a huge database that contained info on TBN�s �partners.� As a data entry clerk you are privy to only basic information, but you could also check to see a partner�s �gift history� if you were so inclined. As a non-profit, TBN has to keep yearly histories for the tax purposes of their donors.

Prayer Partners & Telethon Events:

The prayer partner room is a long room with about 25 rows of 20-30 banks of telephones. The 800 number that you call is sent directly to this room first. During regular broadcasting, anywhere from 10 to 15 prayer partners man the phones and take prayer requests, pray with those that need it, and offer much needed fellowship to others. I would have to say that working in the prayer room was my favorite job at TBN. During telethon events, the lines were reversed, however. All calls to the 800 number during telethons are routed upstairs to a data entry room, which is identical to the prayer room, except that each station has a computer terminal at it. Callers wishing to give a one-time gift or to renew their pledge to TBN may do so first before praying with a prayer partner. TBN recruits roughly 100 people for telethons. They work around the clock.

There are three telethons each year at TBN. There is a spring telethon, a fall telethon, and they add another telethon just for the purpose of raising money for special things. The year that TBN launched their first satellite broadcast, there was a telethon to raise money for the satellite hardware. After about 4 months, and 2 telethons, I was promoted to �row supervisor� for each of the two rooms. I supervised roughly 40 or so people working the prayer lines and the data entry lines at different intervals.

This is how TBN works. My next post I will show the real issues, the real problems that plagued TBN while I worked there � and may very well continue to plague the place today.

Next post below.

[ayin jade]

Problems on the Home Front

Leadership problems, cliques, and Sexual Immorality:

As I wrote, roughly 20-30 people staffed the pulling room. Of these 20-30, maybe two or three � at best � were ever men. The pulling room supervisor was a woman, in fact. This is not really very wrong; it�s pretty typical, really. However, a lot of these women were very cliquish. Rumors ran rampant around that office, and two of these women constantly fought. In fact, I had heard that after I left these two ladies � in their 40�s mind you, took their business out into the street in from of the building. They duked it out in front of God and everybody.

Leadership was a definite problem. After working for both men and women over the years, it is my opinion that men make better leaders overall; although I have never had a problem working with a woman. But when someone � anyone, allows that kind of talk, gossip, rumors, etc. to float around, without stopping it - and even engages in the activity, he or she is a very poor leader.

The hypocrisy in that place was stifling. I�ll give you an example. I worked in pulling and data entry for about 5 months. My wife worked there for almost a year. We had considered many of those people as friends, so when it was time to marry, we sent each of them invitations. Of about 80 invitations, only 10 people showed up. Why? Well, you see, my wife was pregnant with our first child when we were married. One of our friends told us that nobody came because of this.

[edited for propriety]...There were some problems with sexual immorality of a couple of the staff, which were never addressed due to the status of one of the persons involved.

Jan the Tyrant:

Jan Crouch made periodic visits to the business side � one about every 6 months or so. On one visit she noticed that people�s desks had little pictures of their families, little crosses, plants, and images of Christ in various forms on them. So, she walked through the entire office from end-to-end pulling these items off the desks and placing them into a large garbage bag. The bag was deposited in an office, and employees were told to claim them by the end of the day, else they be thrown away. From that time it was ordered that no employee was to bring any pictures of family, crossed, or plants to be displayed in their work areas or on their desks.

Jan Crouch did all of the interior designs in both the business building and the studio building. She even designed the Praise the Lord set, and I believe that she also designed the set in the Texas studio where they now spend most of their time. She considered any other decoration an affront to her overall design scheme, and did her best to keep any extraneous decoration to a bare minimum.

Money, Money, Who�s Got the Money?:

People just have no idea how much TBN makes in a year. As I said, when I worked their daily deposits amounted in the millions. During telethons, and immediately afterward, there was more money coming in that I had ever seen in my life � and have seen since.

I never knew for sure how much money Paul & Jan pulled down. But Paul is known for wearing very expensive suits, and I know for a fact that he owns several pieces of very expensive jewelry. Jan�s makeup and wigs alone probably run her into the thousands per month, not to mention her custom tailored dresses. Whenever Paul and Jan came to town for a broadcast from out of state, they flew in a private jet owned by TBN and they rode to the studios in a private limo. This kind of expensive living was not uncommon between the Crouches and their cohorts on the show. I have personally met several of these people. Not one of them wears a suit or a dress worth under $1,000.

Idolatry:

You will note from TBN�s website their icon of a horse and lion on either side of a shield containing the TBN logo. Well, when I worked there, they just had the logo. But sometime after I left, TBN started using this new icon, which I believe is an idol. Apparently a little old ladies who loves the show, and loves the Crouches, painted this for them. Jan must have loved it, because now, this logo is plastered all over the place. I visited the TBN studios in 1999 just for a lark. Both the studio and the business office have huge wooden signs with this logo on it � in full color. The use of the TBN logo has become not just an icon and symbol of TBN itself it is an idol. TBN-ers idolize this ministry, and they idolize this icon.

Slave Labor?

You might expect that a ministry that pulls down as much money as TBN would pay their people well. Well, you would be wrong if you made that assumption. TBN pays its hardest workers nothing more than minimum wage. The pullers and data entry people start at minimum and work their way up. This may have changed since I�ve been their, but I am prone to doubt it. Even the executive secretary barely made $20,000 a year when I worked their � and she had been with TBN for 5 years before I started.

There were some allegations that TBN used sweatshops to manufacture their �love gifts� but I never saw any evidence of it. I would not have put it past them, however.

Conclusion:

Outwardly TBN seems to care for people around the world. They do good works in the name of Jesus Christ. They give dolls to Russian orphan girls, they give coats to the poor, and they help feed the hungry. They preach the gospel to thousands that come to see them at their crusades. But inwardly, under the surface, TBN is corrupt. They hunger for more and more money � money that they use to build $5 million mansions, drive in limos, and fly in expensive jets. They preach the gospel of prosperity to others, yet it is they that prosper the most in the long run. Not only is TBN�s gospel another gospel, but they present themselves as pure and golden to people who are easily drawn in by deception. I know, this is where I begin to sound jaded. I think that the reader can determine from my experience what TBN really has got going on under the surface � behind the scenes as it were. There are a few more things that I yet have held back because the Lord has not burdened me to share them here. Needless to say, during my short stay there, TBN cut Lynn and me very deeply�and that�s not just because we were both fired for speaking out against these things either.

Much grace, dear saints of the Lord!

~G

[LOVE SONGS]

I think I remember that.... they were afraid that TBN was not going to be on the air overseas. They were saying they need more money,

for that.

For I remember Benny Hinn being on their program as a guest. He said, how Jan and Paul helped him , when he was a new evangelist.

I really had my fill with them ...all of those that have more than one house and car. To me that is Greed.

I was one poor soul , that would send those t.v. evangelist money.

The one that ticked me the most was this one man , with black hair, that would talk about wisdom...

send just $30 for 7 months, he would say... God works with numbers and you will get the harvest....or something like that....

Guess what ...I did send in the money and was faithful in doing so. He was on Benny Hinn ...and he would say write on the bottom of

check my name. I think his name is Mike Murdock .

He goes on TBN...and other christian stations ... with his swift talk , to rake in the money. I know that now.

I have learned my lesson in sending money to those greedy cheating , people.

They pump you up with hope,and want you to believe in a harvest of prosperity.

They have the prosperity , and are wealthy. They are not hurting.

Wheres' all the promises that they say, that God would do, if I send in money .

I would never talk against t.v. evangelist before ...but, if they are , spending the peoples' hard working

money on themselves,... to live a lavish lifestyle.... it is wrong.

[Botz]

BOTZ:

I can't vouch for what is in the heart of others here, but I don't see any wicked conspiracy..just a few people including

myself who are concerned that some are made aware that there are a few hidden reefs amongst some of the teachings

that come out of the WoF movement...

The concern BOTZ is that you have some awesome Christians who have gotten a lot of Help from Joyce.

I don't deny it Mike, I have read her testimony and she had a horrendous past, and G-d freed her, cleansed her and gave her self-worth...no problemo and Praise Jesus.

Some that have not dug super deep into exactly how the Atonement really took place. I made my point that nobody can explain how. We just have scripture.

I don't think you have to be some sort of intellectual whizz-kid to understand the basis of the atonement..the gospel is not an exercise in academic ability...but a person

must surely understand the difference between what the Bible says and what it doesn't say...otherwise we may as well believe anything.

How does a Man dying remove my sin and get me to Heaven? Ummm. It's just like the bible says................. WHY? Well, that is the way God wanted to do it...........WHY??? It's just that way, that's why. Can you show me how that scientifically makes sense? Your not being serious, are you? yes I am....

I don't believe your attempt at making the comparison is justified or appropriate...it goes off on a tangent.

My point is BOTZ, we put down, criticize, and we ourselves don't know everything.

My point is that because there is a serious need to challenge some things, does not mean one can always be accused of being a critic, or putting down people,

and just because someone has a very prosperous and effective ministry does not mean they are immune from error...are we to ignore the error, or sweep it

under the carpet. In my experience when godly people are pulled up on their sins or mistakes, they do something about it and have a degree of openess

and humility that sincerely seeks to do what is right and wants to walk in holiness.

Lots of things we just believe by faith. Joyce Loves Jesus, Jesus has removed lots of pain and hurt she endured as a Child, and nothing she says about Jesus degrades him, or removes anything important. She is really trying to use scriptures and fill in the blanks about what he went through for her. It's that important to her. Where is the fault? Why even make a comment?

Because in some things she is deviating from the Gospel, and people need to see the error. Even Hagin was concerned, and produced a book in 2000 called the 'Midas Touch' in which

he states: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.”

Although you may have blinkers on...it is my hope that when some others read this they will at least check a few things out.

One scripture that says if we believe on how the atonement, or how the sin was forgive then we are saved.......... Just one scripture please.

The 'Atonement' is where Jesus suffered and paid for our sins, and the Bible is rife with references as it is central to salvation...it is absolutely foundational.

Colossians 1: 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

26.'...He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'

Salvation, redemption, sacrifice...all speak of the atonement where Jesus has laid down His life to pay for our sins...it was at the cross as the Holy Lamb of G-d that His blood

paid the price in full, not at the cross and some made up fable about continuing to be tortured/abused/despised/mocked/taunted for 3 days in the pit of Hell.

You might find this is a sort of poetic/prosaic license accorded to preachers...but with some in WoF it has become standard fare and is heretical.

There are none, we are told to believe he was raised from the dead, and believe on him. Now all of a sudden it's of extreme importance to know something none of use know but what scripture gives, and it's never mentioned as what saves............ Jesus said believe and be baptized or be damned. Believe Jesus is the son of God.

Sorry bro, that really is nonsense... Most people are able to understand the basic Gospel message, respond and get saved...but it becomes an 'issue' that needs to be addressed

only when there is some deviation from the truth...so now it becomes very important to high-light what the Bible teaches, and strongly oppose what it doesn't teach.

One scripture BOTZ that we must fully understand how Jesus got the keys of Death and Hell from Satan, one scripture that says we must know just how Blood can cover sin? Just one?

Perhaps if you could point me to the Scripture where you claim 'Jesus got the keys of Death and Hell from Satan', I might attempt an explanation?

Also why mentioned the WOF................. You know that nobody ever took a "GAY" vote in that camp........the Methodist did, Presbyterians did.

Er...because we are discussing Joyce Meyer who happens to be WoF.

[Botz]

continued....

One scripture BOTZ.............. I can give you all the ones we are told to believe to be saved, and exactly what happened on the cross, and How it works is not mentioned one time.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

12 Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

Our initial introduction to the L-rd needs to be understood in the light of the full revelation of Scripture, which should lead us to a more solid understanding of the Gospel

and what lies at the core of our belief...this includes recognising when there is something nasty in the wood-shed. If we are ignorant of what Scripture says, and are not

obedient to it in our lives, then we will be vulnerable to those that try and tell us things that Scripture does not say.

Paul loved his brother the Apostle Peter...but he never let that love stand in the way of rebuking him for being a hypocrite...and he wasn't being a kill-joy or critic, and was

fully aware of what Peter had accomplished in his walk with Jesus.

We have Joyce though who Believes her Lord paid a great price just for her. So, she might not fully comprehend everything, might make it a little dramatic...

It was important enough to her to try to figure out what the heck happened

So when we don't understand things, we can just make stuff up...give me a break. Jesus in Hell tormented by devils has become standard WoF doctrine by some.

Most of use just go... Oh, Jesus, ya, he died on the cross... Just for us.

That is all I am saying BOTZ.......... She never took a gay vote also. What is really important? Why do we have to put down people, or make them look bad when we ourselves don't know that much?

I can't see the connection you are trying to make...I have already stated that JM has surely helped many people.

There is a vast difference between trying to put people down or make them look bad...and pointing out some inconsistencies. These people are fully in the public eye

so we have a right to put their words to the test and see where they are coming from....and in some cases present a nunber of observations that need to be addressed.

Paul insisted people check out what he taught...if we blindly accept what people say we are somewhat foolish IMO.

No one is so anointed that their teachings cannot be challenged.

[Zemke]

"I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say." The apostle Paul with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 10:15

[Fez]

For me this is not about TBN or pastors who earn huge amounts from them. I have stated over and over I don't watch TBN because I get bored with it, and I don't like the fact that after every "preach" I am invited to buy a ram's horn, or "holy cloth", or some other worthless trinket.....

What I am trying to glean from the posts is this.

Is it a sin to be wealthy? (And before you start thinking...., No I am not in the eyes of most, but to the beggar in the streets of India, yes, I am Bill Gates). Hey, if you are reading this on your own computer, so are you.

How much is wealthy? (It's relative is it not?)

And as there are few posters who seem to think wealth is a problem, I want to know if the problem stems from the wealth, or how it is aquired or spent?

What for instance, is the difference between Warren Buffet and Benny Hinn when it comes to the way wealth was/is aquired, or how it is spent?

[LOVE SONGS]

(quote) Brother Mike

As I said, I hope I am not embarrassed by these folks in Heaven as they scream at God for wasting all the precious Gold on street pavement. Shame on God, when that money could have been used here on Earth........... Shame, shame.

Mike.... Heaven and Earth are 2 different places. God creates everything in heaven ...even His streets of Gold.

It didn't take money for God to make the streets of gold in Heaven. God doesn't use money in Heaven !

If He did ...I sure wished ......He would send me some money from heaven !

For, God knows that it takes money for us to survive here on earth. We cannot

buy, food, clothing, or keep a roof over our heads, and etc. without money.

To me, I think that the verse in the bible..." money is the root of all evil", means...

when you use money as in ..... Greed ....it is evil !!!!!!