Greed in the Church

[Fr Chuck]

yes it has, and it has allowed alot of false gospel to be taught in the Church.

I was in one of the larger churches in Atlanta, who had a large percentage of homosexuals that attended and also were very large monetary givers to the church.

The pastor from the pulpit during the sermon paised the homosexual community as a true blessing from God.

I guess for his pocket book they are, So money can re-write the bible for many churches.

All of our ministers and even Bishops are not allowed to take a salary from the church, they can have thier home paid for, but they all must have another form of income.

This way, the church can not try to fire them for preaching the true word of God.

Far too many pastors are affraid today, to relaly preach the true word of God, or they may lose thier salary, their retirement package, or health insurance.

I know far oo many pastors like that today. If they get to that point, they need to quit, since they are no longer really a pastor for God anyway.

[Guest Christian Luthier]

Exactly Right On! Fr Chuck! "Whom do you serve, God or mammon"? The church is being "sold out" by a lot of greed. And what about the congregation hearing these things? They are not hearing the truth. People do need to make a living, but how much is "a living", and how much is "greed"?

I especially like one particular TV preacher, who say "send me $58.00, and we'll pray for you". :oww: What's up with that, eh? Sounds like greed to me. Or my favorites, on the former PTL, and their air-conditioned dog house, paid for, of course, by the flock they "fleeced". Talk about living "high on the hog"!

As for our business, we let The Lord set the prices, and they're much lower than what I would have decided.

Thnaks very much for your post.

[stevehut]

I never said there was anything wrong with taking up a love offering. The concert I'm referring to was a praise and worship concert and they charged $5 at the door and on top of it took up an offering. Drop the $5 charge and I would have had no problem with the offering. I also never said there is anything wrong with preachers making a living from the Gospel

If that's the case, then you might want to take another look at your original post. What you're saying now, is something entirely different.

[Kabowd]

Wow...well, you address several issues in your initial post. Some of it I agree with, some of it seems rather bitter and judgmental. I don't have alot of time right now, but I'll try to comment on some things:

As I look around I see much corruption in the Christian world. Instead of freely giving they are now charging money for everything. Ever been to a Christian concert whether it is a rock band, country band, or worst of all, a praise and worship team and be charged money at the door even though they are local and don't have to pay for travel expenses. I have seen flyers up several times of some Christian event where an entrance fee is being charged. Then on top of the charge a love offering will be taken up. What is this relaying to the public? Are Christians just as greedy as the public is? It sure seems that way.

To some degree, I can see what you're saying. Charging high prices and having a "love offering" seems kind of overboard..I'm not sure I've ever experienced this before. However, I don't see anything wrong with ppl making a living by sharing the gospel. God gives us gifts to share and be a blessing with. To those who are gifted at teaching, singing, music, etc....what's wrong with them using those gifts to glorfy God and making a living too? How is it any different than anyone else who makes a living without ever sharing the gospel at all? Working a 9 to 5 "regular" job, making a living and never sharing Christ seems like much more of a travesty to me, than criticizing those who are out there spending their lives furthering the gospel and being blessed for it. Sure there are those who are greedy and become driven by the pursuit of fame and fortune. For those, God will deal with them. If it concerns you, don't support their ministry.

Whatever happened to what Paul said about putting others needs before ours? Today the Christian organizations make sure they get what they need before putting the needs of others.

What organizations are you speaking of specifically? And how do you know they are putting their needs before others? What do you mean by that? For instance, would you consider a ministry selfish because they pay their bills and meet the needs of their staff before they spend money on outreach and other ministries?

Charging at a Christian event is putting the need of the one charging above needs such as salvation to the lost, fellowship with the believer, and so on. The poor get totally left out, yet the Bible says that Jesus came to teach to the poor. How does God look upon the charges placed at these events?

What? An event is not essential to salvation, nor is it necessarily "ministry". Therefore, if a person cannot afford to go, it's not like they are unable to hear the gospel or they won't hear the salvation message because they missed an "event". Concerts, conferences cost money to do. If you know someone who owns a bookstore or a restaurant...do you expect them to give books away or feed everyone for free? If not, why hold those who share the gospel through music to a different standard? Why aren't they allowed to make a profit or at the very least cover the expenses that it takes to share their gifts on a grand scale?

His heart is broken to see the poor not being witnessed to because they don

[Guest yod]

yeah Tess...you nailed it.

This is class envy with a broad brush dressed up in a religious skirt.

[apothanein kerdos]

Just a few questions I have:

* Does charging money to go to an event automatically equate greed?

* Have you ever worked for a Christian event? I have. I knew the owner and all the operators. We charged money for people to go to the event. The main guy could barely afford two beat down cars and was living pay check to pay check, his brother coul donly afford one car that barely ran, and they couldn't even afford to pay their store manager (me) enough money for gas to get there....so how is this greed?

* If the Christian event is absolutely needed for a person, then why don't you or the church pay for it?

* Is charging at the door putting salvation above others...or is simply a way for the speaker and workers of these events to put food on their tables?

* Are we charged with putting other's needs before our own, or putting our family's needs before our own?

* What's wrong with being rich?

* If God's heart is broken to see people having to pay to go to events, then why can't the church put together money to go to these events (assuming the people tithe)

* Isn't it true that some churches charge $5 for tapes because most of that money goes to the sound crew who did the work in the first place?

* Why in the world was she selling a picture of herself? Now THAT is stupid and arrogant.

* Are Christian mucisians rich or exempt from paying taxes or having to feed their families?

* Do you know what the average Christian musician makes?

* Do you know the sacrifice put into becomming a full time Christian musician?

* Why does the church "have" to have the worship music from a band? Shouldn't worship music be the same if it's from the heart?

* Ew, why would a church send out a donation request to the lost? That's just stupid.

* Are you suggesting pastors should be poor?

* Do you realize what the average pastor's income is? (give you a hint, it's less than $15,000....that's why many pastors are bi-vocational pastors)

* Is there something wrong with a church wanting to take care of its pastors?

* Is there something wrong if a church pays its pastor $200,000 a year but he is out witnessing everyday, studying for his lesson, and ministering his flock...and the church can afford his salary....and they spend millions of dollars on programs for the poor?

* Why is it wrong for churches to have fund raisers?

* Where is it biblically proven that he did not ask for money?

* What is wrong with using instruments and lights on stage in worship?

Just a few questions I have.

[Guest yod]

* Why in the world was she selling a picture of herself? Now THAT is stupid and arrogant.

I'll answer that!

Because you can only order them by the thousand yet you only need a hundred or so for media & bookings in the christian realm. These things cost money! A professional photographer can get upwards of $300 and the copies are about $200 plus shipping.

Photos are something you can sell cheap (usually a buck or two) so people without much money can get a souvenir of a concert. If someone doesn't have any money, you can give them one and they feel like they got something of value. If this offends you then don't buy one! Seems simple enough....

I have old photos that I give away to kids if they will draw a beard and mustache on me .

And...if someone wants an autograph they usually prefer it on a photo. Honestly, I don't know why someone would value another person's signature but you'd be accused of being snobbish and arrogant if you refuse.

* Do you know what the average Christian musician makes?

I do! :::gulp:::

* Do you know the sacrifice put into becoming a full time Christian musician?

Are you talking about the years spent playing for absolutely nothing in order to develop your craft? Or are you talking about the years spent playing for nothing AFTER you've developed your craft?

* Why does the church "have" to have the worship music from a band? Shouldn't worship music be the same if it's from the heart?

I don't know of many churches that pay their worship band....not even gas expenses.

[apothanein kerdos]

* Why in the world was she selling a picture of herself? Now THAT is stupid and arrogant.

I'll answer that!

Because you can only order them by the thousand yet you only need a hundred or so for media & bookings in the christian realm.

Photos are something you can sell cheap (usually a buck or two) so people without much money can get a souvenir. I have old photos that I give to kids if they will draw a beard and mustache on it first.

* Do you know what the average Christian musician makes?

I do! :::gulp:::

* Do you know the sacrifice put into becoming a full time Christian musician?

Are you talking about the years spent playing for absolutely nothing in order to develop your craft? Or are you talking about the years spent playing for nothing AFTER you've developed your craft?

* Why does the church "have" to have the worship music from a band? Shouldn't worship music be the same if it's from the heart?

I don't know of many churches that pay their worship band....not even gas expenses.

Wow Yod, I didn't even realize that on the first question you answered. Thank you very much...that makes MUCH more sense.

[desertcry]

I don't know how to quote so each thing with an * by it is a quote

* Does charging money to go to an event automatically equate greed?

Not necessarily but we need to make people aware of what they are doing and that they shouldn't charge for a Christian event that ministers the Gospel but rather take up a love offering and trust in the Lord to meet their need.

* Have you ever worked for a Christian event? I have. I knew the owner and all the operators. We charged money for people to go to the event. The main guy could barely afford two beat down cars and was living pay check to pay check, his brother coul donly afford one car that barely ran, and they couldn't even afford to pay their store manager (me) enough money for gas to get there....so how is this greed?

It may not be greed but again, if it is the Lord's will he will supply the need to meet the cost of the event.

* If the Christian event is absolutely needed for a person, then why don't you or the church pay for it?

The church and those that can afford it should help pay for events that are needed.

* Is charging at the door putting salvation above others...or is simply a way for the speaker and workers of these events to put food on their tables?

Charging at the door leaves out the poor. It can be very difficult to get some people to just simply go to church, but they will go to certain events and be ministered to there. If there is a charge at the door of an event which could bring in someone's salvation, they may not go because of the charge and therefore miss the message of the Gospel and not enter Heaven.

* Are we charged with putting other's needs before our own, or putting our family's needs before our own?

We need to put both our families and other's needs before our own.

* What's wrong with being rich?

Define being rich. Is being rich building up treasure on earth or do you mean being rich as in having a job making lots of money? I don't have my Bible with me so I don't know the Scriptures right off hand but there are a lot of Scriptures talking against being rich in the form of building up treasure on Earth. I believe it is James that talks about people's riches being a witness against them on the day of judgement. Jesus also never told the rich man that it was alright to be rich but rather to sell all and give the money to the poor. As far as making a lot of money there is nothing that I cna find wrong with it as long as you aren't using it to build up treasure on earth but rather use it to further the Gospel, feed the poor, etc. If people that make a lot of money gave, and there are many Christians that make a lot of money, then maybe they should help pay the cost as some of these events so the poorer people can attend.

* If God's heart is broken to see people having to pay to go to events, then why can't the church put together money to go to these events (assuming the people tithe)

The church can if the event is God's will. God will supply.

* Isn't it true that some churches charge $5 for tapes because most of that money goes to the sound crew who did the work in the first place?

Not teaching tapes. Usually people that do the recordings are volunteers. Why would one church sell teaching tapes for $5 and another for $1? These churches are in the same area and about the same size. The one that sells tapes for $5 also demands tithes from all it's members whereas the one that sells them for $1 only asks for those that can to give from their hearts.

* Why in the world was she selling a picture of herself? Now THAT is stupid and arrogant.

I agree. Some people have stated to get autographs from fans. What I have to say to that is if you can show me a Scripture where the Apostles signed autographs then I will agree that signing autographs is alright. People who sign autographs are usually put on a pedastool above those asking for an autograph. When is the last time you met someone famous that asked for your autograph? In Christ, we are not to put ourselves above others.

* Are Christian mucisians rich or exempt from paying taxes or having to feed their families?

No, and fans that tend their events should try to give something to support the band if the band is in God's will

* Do you know what the average Christian musician makes?

I used to play in a Christian rock band and we did not charge at the door. We weren't well known at all and at the first rally we played at we put a donation box at the door and made about $60 in donations. If a more popular Christian band did this, they would certainly make quite a bit more.

* Do you know the sacrifice put into becomming a full time Christian musician?

Yeppers, and I don't find joy in charging money but I find joy in seeing souls saved?

* Why does the church "have" to have the worship music from a band? Shouldn't worship music be the same if it's from the heart?

Christians worship in Spirit and in truth, it doesn't matter if there is a band there or not.

* Ew, why would a church send out a donation request to the lost? That's just stupid.

Well, a lot of the asking for the donations will go to people that are in town. They will send out mass mailing to all including the lost to help with a building fund or something of that nature. My parent's got one from a church they have nothing to do with.

* Are you suggesting pastors should be poor?

I'm suggesting that pastors should trust God to meet their needs and not be greedy with money.

* Do you realize what the average pastor's income is? (give you a hint, it's less than $15,000....that's why many pastors are bi-vocational pastors)

Well, I heard differently. I went to a men's meeting with a pastor making $36,000 and according to men at the meeting, this was among the lower income of pastors. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I have heard.

* Is there something wrong with a church wanting to take care of its pastors?

Never said there was something wrong with it.

* Is there something wrong if a church pays its pastor $200,000 a year but he is out witnessing everyday, studying for his lesson, and ministering his flock...and the church can afford his salary....and they spend millions of dollars on programs for the poor?

Nothing wrong if he is using the money as the Lord wills and not being greedy with it.

* Why is it wrong for churches to have fund raisers?

This is a very good question. I don't remember ever reading in the New Testament where the Apostle's had fund raisers. Many fund raisers are put so people can go to some events in order to have fund, but not all. I would seriously pray before having a fund raiser to make sure you are in the Lord's will.

* Where is it biblically proven that he did not ask for money?

I know somewhere in Corinthians he said he gave up His right to ask for money but I need the Bible with me to be exact.

* What is wrong with using instruments and lights on stage in worship?

Nothing, as long as people are also taking care of the poor in the church and other important financial things.

I hope I answered you're questions good.

Another thing I want to say is that I have been accused of being envious by someone on the board. I don't envy the rich that build up treasure on earth. If I were one of them, I would be very afraid and I rejoice that I'm not in that position. This thread was not fueled by envy. It was fueled because of my burden for the poor and the lost and wanting to see them saved. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough in the initial threat and that's why I am responding to all the questions. Thanks for your time.

[Guest yod]

Good comments, man....I understand where you are coming from and agree with most of your points completely. I'm not opposing your views but rather trying to offer another perspective because one size does not fit all, ya know?

we need to make people aware of what they are doing and that they shouldn't charge for a Christian event that ministers the Gospel but rather take up a love offering and trust in the Lord to meet their need

actually I think it is more honest and much better to have a cover charge instead of a "love offering".

How much does it cost to go to a movie? How about a sports event? Any concert these days?

If someone doesn't want to support the event they don't go. It's that simple. If you want someone to get saved bring them to church or give them the gospel....or pay their admission yourself. That would be a good witness, eh?

An event has costs associated with it and it's just as "unchristlike" to be bad stewards of time and money. If an event falls flat on it's face they will think twice before doing it again.