Greed in the Church

[larryt]

Hi Yod,

LT.....why do you pay your pastor?

1. Because we love him.

2. So he doesn't have to go out and get a second job to take care of his family. He already has one.

1Tim. 5:17

[Guest yod]

that scripture is about elders, not the pastor.

So according to your earlier posts the pastor is in "business" now that he gets paid?

(I don't think there is anything wrong with running a church just like a business, btw. I think that is EXPECTED by the Lord....we just produce a different "product" than most businesses that come to mind)

My point is this;

Apparently you see some value to paying your pastor....but I don't think you feel that anyone else should ever get money for their labor in ministry?

Or...you think they should not have a set value to what they do...in other words they should just hope that people give enough for them make ends meet every week and supposedly raise families that way?

Am I reading you correctly?

[larryt]

Hi HTN,

I am glad to hear that you are involved in outreach and evangelism. I have been to many "mega-churches" and have observed, and observed. There are several in the area I live. Most are fashioned after the "Purpose Driven Church" and the results are the same. The church becomes huge very fast.

The other one is a very large church which is very "flash wow factor" kind of thing with huge worship teams and about 4000 people over it's 6 weekend services. Every service has a talk about tithes and offerings and collections are taken with an emphasis on giving out of your finances to build the house of God in London...and you know what? I've seen what they're using the money for and I have no problem!!! The money DOES get used on building the church and the results are showing...over 2000 decisions for Jesus this year! Praise God on high!!!

By your statement the emphasis is on "flash wow factor." What is the "flash wow factor" and how is one saved by this? If you took away the "flash wow factor" and just preached the word, how many would stay to just "FEAST" on the Word. You mention 2000 decisions... Any good salesman can get decisions for Christ. B. Graham gets decisions for Christ and 95% never get involved in the body. They are "stony ground" hearers that "have no root"(Jesus) and whither away when the sun come out. Are they making an entertainment center for goats or a feeding trough for sheep? Is the emphasis on Worship or adhearance to the Word(true worship).

LT

[larryt]

that scripture is about elders, not the pastor.

So according to your earlier posts the pastor is in "business" now that he gets paid?

(I don't think there is anything wrong with running a church just like a business, btw. I think that is EXPECTED by the Lord....we just produce a different "product" than most businesses that come to mind)

My point is this;

Apparently you see some value to paying your pastor....but I don't think you feel that anyone else should ever get money for their labor in ministry?

Or...you think they should not have a set value to what they do...in other words they should just hope that people give enough for them make ends meet every week and supposedly raise families that way?

Am I reading you correctly?

Hi Yod,

I'll add this, I beleive our pastor would do what he is doing even if we couldn't pay him.

Again, ever read the story of George Muller?

LT

[Guest yod]

Every minister of the gospel I know would too.....so what?

You didn't answer the questions.

I'd like to address your response to this also.

By your statement the emphasis is on "flash wow factor." What is the "flash wow factor" and how is one saved by this? If you took away the "flash wow factor" and just preached the word, how many would stay to just "FEAST" on the Word. You mention 2000 decisions... Any good salesman can get decisions for Christ. B. Graham gets decisions for Christ and 95% never get involved in the body. They are "stony ground" hearers that "have no root"(Jesus) and whither away when the sun come out. Are they making an entertainment center for goats or a feeding trough for sheep? Is the emphasis on Worship or adhearance to the Word(true worship).

Are you trying to say that your church is the only one that preaches the gospel or that they are the only church that does it right?

A church is not necessarily FOR preaching the gospel. They are about equipping the saints for ministry.

I find there are advantages and disadvantages to large churches AND to small ones.

It doesn't make one "better" than the other but it might be "better" for someone's particular situation. For instance, my wife likes a large church because they generally have plenty of programs (Bible studies, small groups, classes, activities) for all ages of kids and adults. We have 6 kids spread out from age 3 to 20

I like a small congregation for the sense of community and accountability to the whole group....but it usually has a bad youth program because the adults focus on the preacher more than the next generation.

Could you find the grace to admit that one size doesn't fit all?

[larryt]

Every minister of the gospel I know would too.....so what?

You didn't answer the questions.

I'd like to address your response to this also.

By your statement the emphasis is on "flash wow factor." What is the "flash wow factor" and how is one saved by this? If you took away the "flash wow factor" and just preached the word, how many would stay to just "FEAST" on the Word. You mention 2000 decisions... Any good salesman can get decisions for Christ. B. Graham gets decisions for Christ and 95% never get involved in the body. They are "stony ground" hearers that "have no root"(Jesus) and whither away when the sun come out. Are they making an entertainment center for goats or a feeding trough for sheep? Is the emphasis on Worship or adhearance to the Word(true worship).

Are you trying to say that your church is the only one that preaches the gospel or that they are the only church that does it right?

A church is not necessarily FOR preaching the gospel. They are about equipping the saints for ministry.

I find there are advantages and disadvantages to large churches AND to small ones.

It doesn't make one "better" than the other but it might be "better" for someone's particular situation. For instance, my wife likes a large church because they generally have plenty of programs (Bible studies, small groups, classes, activities) for all ages of kids and adults. We have 6 kids spread out from age 3 to 20

I like a small congregation for the sense of community and accountability to the whole group....but it usually has a bad youth program because the adults focus on the preacher more than the next generation.

Could you find the grace to admit that one size doesn't fit all?

No way Yod!!!!!!

Size is not the issue. There have been many who have brough forth claims of great numbers of converts and 2-3 yrs later where are they. Jesus said "FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT" - the path to eternal life. The easy believeism gospel is just making the way to destruction that much more slippery. Numbers and jumping up and down don't prove revival. Changed lives proves revival.

Mt 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name

[shammah]

I think your right on Larry T.:

My thread on "What ever you do, do as unto Christ"; was actually my reaction to greed in the church.

Matt.25:34-45;

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me!

What would Jesus do? Popular saying; but who really studies it?He could have made lots of money!!!! And Judas who He chose to take care of the cash; was really upset about wasting that expensive annointing oil on Christ;(when Judas said it could have been sold, and the money gone to the poor)!

So we know Judas tried to make Christ feel guilty for wasting the expensive oil! Rebuke Jesus! And then shortly there after betray for money, and then with a Kiss!

We can see that you can't serve God, and Money; so Jesus chose His betrayer to look after the Money!

We know the Poor and needy was where the money was supposed to go, but I'm sure Judas must have felt cheated about his share of the wasted purfume, so he went almost immediately for His thirty pieces of silver, since we Know Christs body that night according to His words was BEING PREPARED for His burrial!

What would Paul do? Who did more work for the Lord than any Pastor or Apostle: He wouldn't take payment, other than to give it to others! He wanted to set a good example; and wanted to store up heavenly rewards!

He didn't even want the collections to be taken while he was there!

For many Pastors this was what it was all about! Even lets pass the hat twice, or give our very best gift! But to Paul, the two were not to mix!! Get the money together before I arrive, and it will be sent to the poor and needy!!

1 Cor.16:1,2

1NOW CONCERNING the money contributed for [the relief of] the saints (God's people): you are to do the same as I directed the churches of Galatia to do.

2On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come

What did the early church do? Were they setting out to fulfill the needs of the body with spiritual gifts, and distibuting material goods according to needs?

Acts.4:32-35;

32Now the company of believers was of one heart and soul, and not one of them claimed that anything which he possessed was [exclusively] his own, but everything they had was in common and for the use of all.

33And with great strength and ability and power the apostles delivered their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace (loving-kindness and favor and goodwill) rested richly upon them all.

34Nor was there a destitute or needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses proceeded to sell them, and one by one they brought (gave back) the amount received from the sales

35And laid it at the feet of the apostles (special messengers). Then distribution was made according as anyone had need.

The fellowshiping of the Gifts: People are the body of Christ ! People are gifts to each other, temples made without hands, gifts given freely, and priceless towards each other!

We dont need a Judas looking after the distribution of funds for the needy; it was laid at the Apostles feet and people were chosen to find the needy people! Maybe even sometimes some of the Pastors, prophets, or even Apostles needed food , clothing or traveling money!

But it must not have been that important, because even (Jesus) sent His most prescious Apostles out with nothing; because the rewards are Spiritual and more than we can comprehend!

Matt.10:8-10;

8Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely (without pay) you have received, freely (without charge) give.

9Take no gold nor silver nor [even] copper money in your purses (belts);

10And do not take a provision bag or a [1] wallet for a collection bag for your journey, nor two undergarments, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the workman deserves his support (his living, his food).

If we can't work a little, and count on God, and hard work, for the natural things; Where will the faith be, when He sends you out with nothing, to fight against the principalities of this world, and to do even greater works than the Apostles, in these Last days!!!

Agape in Christ; Ephraim.

Edited October 21, 2004 by shammah

[Guest yod]

There have been many who have brough forth claims of great numbers of converts and 2-3 yrs later where are they.

The pastor's salary has nothing to do with this either. Good churches and bad churches come in all sizes and from all economic statures.

Yes...there are plenty of large churches that appear greedy to me too....but it's not right to broadbrush them ALL as such. Small churches can be envious of large ones which is just as bad.

Is it possible that Abraham, Joseph, Solomon (etc) are in heaven?

Edited October 20, 2004 by yod

[Guest the_Panther]

The thing that really erks me :x: is when a "Gospel Band" tries to put on a "affordable venue" and sell tickets "cheap" just to have :x: ticketmasters(scalpers in my book) buy up all the tickets and jack up the prices...makes it very unfair to the Groups & makes them look bad.I speak first hand as I was going to take my boys to 2 Concernts just to find that a $5.00 ticket whould now cost @ 25-30..That to me is just W-R-O-N-G!

Your Brother In Christ Our Lord,

Patrick A.K.A....the Panther

[Guest He's taking names]

larryt...of course the emphasis is on the word! we have loud big "flash" worship music yes, but that doesn't mean the teaching is lack luster...if it was I wouldn't be going there. The reason I said "wow flash factor" is to describe to others what THEY might see looking at it on the surface...but that doesn't mean people's lives aren't being changed and that Jesus isn't doing things at the church...cause guess what? He is!!! praise Him!!!

No, ALL of those people making decisions for Christ may not be true believers forever...but the point is they're making the choice! that's a HUGE step for someone who doesn't know Christ as I'm sure you'd agree and we do our absolute best to get those people involved and supported once they have made that choice. What more could we be doing?...when did I claim revival? ...I don't understand I'm sorry.

"It kind of weird though that England was the country that first broke away from the Popes dominance, and had the Word published so that even a lay person could read it and get saved without, the Papal rules!

Yet in recent survey's England, had one of the smallest percentage of people (in the western, or so called christianized culture) professing faith in Christ!

Agape Ephraim. "

sorry, how does the quote thing work?

yes this is true...less than 3% of people in london profess to be born again Christians...what a privilage to be a believer in such a place, to if possible make our lives do something in this city for Christ in a relevent way! to make a difference to the spiritual climate of this place!!! With God's help this is what I will work for with my brothers. May His grace and wisdom be our guide!

In His love

Simon