Guest man Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 What I was talking about is the prayers of so many Christians that are more prayers of hope rather than of faith. What exactly do you suppose faith is? FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things not seen. You'll find that in Hebrews. Such prayers of hope are no different than what any other person praying to Buddha or Confucious, Chairman Mao, or a rock they have above their chimney might pray. You have much to learn carlos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2012 Your signs are coming.......be patient. myeh. perhaps one could pray for rain like the prophet...and he was just one man I'm just too sarcastic so I toned it down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couppy Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 135 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2012 Your signs are coming.......be patient. myeh. perhaps one could pray for rain like the prophet...and he was just one man I'm just too sarcastic so I toned it down... Sometimes we miss the little things while looking out for the big ones. Our lives are full of God's signs and wonders. Another thing is that God will not pour new wine into old vines. We must be of a broken spirit and of a humble mind to enable the Holy Spirit to operate freely through us. Elijah was completely dedicated to God and had a very close relationship with God, from what I gathered from the old testament. Couppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Most of what you are sharing SevenSeas isn't even worth responding to. But I would like to correct a misimpression you are leaving on this thread. I thought you were somehow familiar Carlos and I looked up a thread I thought I saw you in and it was the one where the op is wondering about being a prophet and it turns out that person is you Nice try to make me out to be some prophet nut or something. I didn't even mention that I thought I was a prophet till later in the thread. The fact is that I did not start that thread to discuss whether I was a prophet. Anyone that cares to verify this as true..simply go read the thread in question. The thread was started by me to discuss why it seems that the modern church does not make room for prophets. Not me specifically, though of course that has been my personal experience, but rather overall. My thinking I have been gifted as a prophet was incidental to the subject of the thread and I purposely tried to steer people away from discussing whether I was a prophet or not when the thread began to steer in that direction as opposed to the subject matter I started it with. Make of it what you will, I now understand more than I did when I first responded, so I am removing myself from the dialogue Excellent. Best wishes. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 I'm just too sarcastic so I toned it down... It's not a matter of toning down your sarcasm. It's a matter of whether or not sarcasm is of the Spirit or not. And if it is not...then it has no place in any discussion which might otherwise be fruitful (at least with respect to your input). Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Your signs are coming.......be patient. Matthew 24 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Etc... So tell me something man (I mean your name and not just saying man as hey man)... What exactly do you make of the verses I have been quoting in this thread? Are you completely opposed to whatever it is that they are saying to us? Do you see any application at all for verses that say that we can do all things if we believe, that we will do greater works than Jesus, and so forth? I mean it's nice that you are warning me (and us) about the counterfeit signs that are a coming but....well...I never said that signs were to replace the Word as in that we should forget the Word and chase after signs, worshiping signs like God or something. I said that signs and wonders accompanied the preaching of the Gospel in the New Testament and that the Lord used such to confirm the message preached. Do you have any serious and Scripturally sound dispute with that assessment? Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 What I was talking about is the prayers of so many Christians that are more prayers of hope rather than of faith. What exactly do you suppose faith is? FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things not seen. You'll find that in Hebrews. Excellent question Man. I'll quote the verse in Hebrews at length below... Hebrews 11:1 (AKJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Interesting. Now that I have quoted what the verse says I would like to venture an answer to your question. Notice that faith is the substance of things hoped for. In other words what is hoped for has become, for all intents and purposes, a given. A given that we reach out for and possess by faith. It has become substance when we don't see any substance of what we are hoping for anywhere. At least not yet. Faith is also the evidence of things not seen. Meaning that we don't have to see anything with our eyes or have any verifiable proof of something as being so. We can see things that are not and have evidence of their being so by faith. Now, correct me if you think I am wrong here Man, but to me...that is NOT faith of the kind that many Christians engage in when they pray. The verse is talking about CERTAIN hope through faith, as sure as if we saw the substance of what we are hoping for and saw it with our own eyes. Most prayers that Christians utter these days, it seems to me, are not prayers of CERTAIN hope made certain through faith, taking hold of God and His promises and calling down what is not as though it was. They are prayers of wishful thinking. Wishing that God might do something if possible and if it is His will. Where is there the CERTAINTY of faith in that? There isn't any. You have much to learn carlos. Indeed I do. I will be the first to line up to learn from you if you can share with me how to apply the verses, that I have quoted in this thread, to see them become real in my life. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2012 Over the years of my Christian life I have thought about this on and off with never a satisfactory answer so I thought I would start a new thread to see if the Lord might give me some insight through some of you all about this. I have been reading Mark the last week or so and a number of verses out of Mark have also been brought to the forefront of my thinking with respect to this issue too. Incidentally I have been doing a LOT of reading about various bible versions and have decided to go back to using the KJV (King James Version) or a version that is based on it exclusively (as opposed to the NASB). For now I will be using the 21st Century King James Version so all quotes are from that version. Anyway here are some verses in Mark... Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was now full. But He was in the hind part of the boat, asleep on a pillow; and they awoke Him and said unto Him, "Master, carest thou not that we perish?” And He arose, and rebuked the wind and said unto the sea, “Peace, be still.” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And He said unto them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith?” The reason the disciples could not do what Jesus did was NOT because they could not but rather because they had no faith to do it. Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, “A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” And He could do no mighty works there, except that He laid His hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief. And He went round about the villages teaching. It is ironic that in a place where Jesus marveled at their lack of faith, that He could still heal a few sick folks. If we go by that as a barometer of how great our faith is we must come to the conclusion that our lack of faith today is of a measure that surpasses even the lack of faith that made Jesus marvel since even a few sick folks can't hardly be healed today! At least in North America. Acts 7:13 And He called unto Him the twelve, and began to send them forth two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits, ... And they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them. People who were sick were often said to have unclean spirits. Spirits over which Jesus gave the apostles power to cast them out. If much sickness is due to spiritual possession why can't we of today cast out the spirits and heal the physical manifestation of these spirits? Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they had come from Bethany, He was hungry; and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He might find any thing thereon. But when He came to it He found nothing but leaves, for the time for figs was not yet. And Jesus spoke and said unto it, “Let no man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.” And His disciples heard it. Mark 11:20 And in the morning as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter, calling to remembrance, said unto Him, “Master, behold, the fig tree which Thou cursed is withered away.” And Jesus answering, said unto them, “Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, ‘Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea,’ and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, what things so ever ye desire when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. What Jesus did to the fig tree we can ALL do IF we believe. It is not a matter of dispensation, where such things have ceased to be able to be done but, rather a matter of having a lack of faith! How can we have that kind of faith? Beats me. A couple of days ago I went to use a public bathroom and found a stopped up toilet. I tried to flush it down while rebuking the stoppage of poop and whatever else was in there but nothing. The toilet remained blocked. A few days before that I rebuked a bunch of ants coming into my habitation and...nothing. They still came in such that I have had to fight them ever since. I have rebuked allergic reactions on my skin, tooth aches, colds, you name it and...nothing. Things remain as they are. How can I grow in faith so as to be able to take advantage of these great promises to do the things Jesus did and which things are clearly possible for those who have faith?? I have no clue. I've even had Pastors pray for me in the spirit of James where it says to call for the elders of a church to pray over you when you are sick and...nothing. Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into Heaven, and sat at the right hand of God. And they went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word with signs following. Amen. I know there is some controversy about these verses at the end of Mark. Quite frankly I don't care about the controversy and believe they are part of God's word. Whether you believe that or not doesn't matter to me at all. What matters to me is that the essence of what is said in these verses IS found in other verses too! That signs will accompany believers as they proclaim the Gospel testifying to the truth of it in the eyes and minds of those who hear. Today we have a sanitized Christianity which is nearly all head (i.e. of the intellect). At least in North America or Western culture. Few if any signs are happening except in far flung foreign countries. I want to change that. Why? Because barring that our Gospel is just another intellectual, religious belief like so many others with no supporting proof that it stands for the real God. I believe in a Living Jesus who lives to do what He did while on Earth through His Body! Only thing is that my belief doesn't seem to be enough. For the most part my experience of the Living Christ remains subjective and NOT objective. So how can I change that? How can I grow in my faith so as to see these things happen again for the greater glory of God? All my rebuking and praying against this or that in the name of Jesus does no good. Anybody? I don't want to get into some theological debate where we argue the finer points of dispensationalism or what have you. I could care less about such things in so far as I don't believe the folks who say that these types of things have ceased to be - not by the Word at least. I want to bring the Lord back into life today as He was then! That's what I want. For the glory of God and the furtherance of the Gospel. But...well...I don't quite know how to do that. Carlos Ask and ye shall receive seek and ye shall find. Ask God to increase your faith. Faith only increases as you practice it. If I was to give God a $20.00 bill in faith trusting in him to supply all my needs according to the riches in heaven. Then I firsthand witness that he took care of me then my faith in God would be increased. Then next time I want to give my faith has grown a little stronger. And as a result of practicing my faith I can believe God for bigger things believing and trusting him. Then I'll have more faith to trust the Lord and step out in faith again and maybe give $50.00 the next time because I know he will meet my needs. Things I'm in need of will be supplied. I'm not promised everything I want but he will supply the things I'm in need of. If any man lack wisdom let him ask of the Lord that gives to all men "liberally. But you have to practice your faith with "nothing" wavering. For you can't be a double minded person meaning an unstable person in the faith. If you don't ask in faith then you're just like the waves the sea tossed to and fro with the wind unsettled. When your like that then you can't "expect" anything from God because you have no faith to receive the wisdom you seek from him. You should pray and ask the Lord for the gift of faith also ask for the gift of healing while seeking and coveting these two gifts by practicing your faith in these areas by praying in faith for others who are sick etc., Going to others who need healing not only pysical but spiritual healing. Pray in faith and lay hands or hold hands with the person while you pray for them. Faith has to begin somewhere and must be practice so it will begin to grow and increase into more faith. It doesn't matter how many times you have to pray just don't stop keep on knocking in faith believing. Pray and covet the those gifts of healing and faith. Practice fasting and praying together to keep you spiritually strong in the faith toward evil spirits. Jesus said, to disciples when they couldn't cast out the demon spirit that had possed a man. They were told that some demon spirits want come out except by prayer and fasting. I suppose one shouldn't look at what is not happening and start looking seeking in faith in what could be happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 One other thought came to mind about the difference between faith and hope. I can hope that my favorite college football team will win the championship this year. I can hope all day and all night for such a thing but that is NOT faith. On the other hand faith is when I KNOW based on the promises of God that what I hope for WILL happen! Big, big difference. I see little in the way of prayers offered in faith within the Christian world. I see a great many prayers offered in hope of something happening but not being certain of it happening at all. I speak about my own prayers too. Most of my prayers are also prayers of such hope and not prayers of faith. So I am not just speaking about others but of myself as well. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 10, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Ask and ye shall receive seek and ye shall find. ... etc. Very well put Openly Curious. That's the kind of input I am seeking. Practical, nuts and bolts, advice about how to grow in faith and how to appropriate the reality of the promises I have been quoting in this thread. I will endeavour by His grace to apply what you have shared. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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