gdemoss Posted September 25, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 We are given means to determine whether a prophet is true or false in the book of Deuteronomy, and according to scripture if their claim does not come to pass, they are not a prophet of God, and not to be feared. So a true prophet does not make mistakes. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 New King James Version (NKJV) 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. There are also examples of a prophet being accurate in their predictions, but not being a prophet of God found here. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV) Punishment of Apostates 13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. I'm with you here. This applies when one comes in the name of the Lord and says thus saith the Lord. When God speaks to a prophet and the prophet takes those particular words to God's people, then the prophet is not going to be in error or he is no prophet of God. When I spoke of a prophet making mistakes, I was thinking more along the lines of the prophet who led the other prophet to be eaten by a lion due to disobedience. That prophet never saw it coming but was deceived instead. Thus showing that not all is always revealed unto the prophets. This discussion is becoming fruitful for me as well as my personal study that I am conducting on the side. I'm wondering if there is a difference between having the gift of prophecy and simply having ones understanding enlightened to comprehend that which is prophetic in scripture. More study needed. Thanks for the participation in the thread to date. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted September 25, 2012 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2012 We are given means to determine whether a prophet is true or false in the book of Deuteronomy, and according to scripture if their claim does not come to pass, they are not a prophet of God, and not to be feared. So a true prophet does not make mistakes. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 New King James Version (NKJV) 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. There are also examples of a prophet being accurate in their predictions, but not being a prophet of God found here. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV) Punishment of Apostates 13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. I'm with you here. This applies when one comes in the name of the Lord and says thus saith the Lord. When God speaks to a prophet and the prophet takes those particular words to God's people, then the prophet is not going to be in error or he is no prophet of God. When I spoke of a prophet making mistakes, I was thinking more along the lines of the prophet who led the other prophet to be eaten by a lion due to disobedience. That prophet never saw it coming but was deceived instead. Thus showing that not all is always revealed unto the prophets. This discussion is becoming fruitful for me as well as my personal study that I am conducting on the side. I'm wondering if there is a difference between having the gift of prophecy and simply having ones understanding enlightened to comprehend that which is prophetic in scripture. More study needed. Thanks for the participation in the thread to date. Gary I think the general gist of what Wingnut posted here is that if God is speaking through someone, He's speaking through someone. If He's not, He's not. If someone says He is and their claims, prophecies, predictions, what have you, don't come to pass, then obviously they can't be trusted as a source of prophetical information any further. This bears out scripturally as far as I read it and as far as Wing posted it. Furthermore, I think that if someone out and out says that God is guiding them in interpretation of prophecy this would have to apply as well, because God doesn't make mistakes, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted September 25, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 We are given means to determine whether a prophet is true or false in the book of Deuteronomy, and according to scripture if their claim does not come to pass, they are not a prophet of God, and not to be feared. So a true prophet does not make mistakes. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 New King James Version (NKJV) 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. There are also examples of a prophet being accurate in their predictions, but not being a prophet of God found here. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV) Punishment of Apostates 13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. I'm with you here. This applies when one comes in the name of the Lord and says thus saith the Lord. When God speaks to a prophet and the prophet takes those particular words to God's people, then the prophet is not going to be in error or he is no prophet of God. When I spoke of a prophet making mistakes, I was thinking more along the lines of the prophet who led the other prophet to be eaten by a lion due to disobedience. That prophet never saw it coming but was deceived instead. Thus showing that not all is always revealed unto the prophets. This discussion is becoming fruitful for me as well as my personal study that I am conducting on the side. I'm wondering if there is a difference between having the gift of prophecy and simply having ones understanding enlightened to comprehend that which is prophetic in scripture. More study needed. Thanks for the participation in the thread to date. Gary I think the general gist of what Wingnut posted here is that if God is speaking through someone, He's speaking through someone. If He's not, He's not. If someone says He is and their claims, prophecies, predictions, what have you, don't come to pass, then obviously they can't be trusted as a source of prophetical information any further. This bears out scripturally as far as I read it and as far as Wing posted it. Furthermore, I think that if someone out and out says that God is guiding them in interpretation of prophecy this would have to apply as well, because God doesn't make mistakes, ever. I would agree that if God is the one guiding their will be no mistake in the interpretation with the exception that it is possible for the student to get ahead of the teacher and think they are being shown something they are not. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted September 25, 2012 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2012 We are given means to determine whether a prophet is true or false in the book of Deuteronomy, and according to scripture if their claim does not come to pass, they are not a prophet of God, and not to be feared. So a true prophet does not make mistakes. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 New King James Version (NKJV) 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. There are also examples of a prophet being accurate in their predictions, but not being a prophet of God found here. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV) Punishment of Apostates 13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. I'm with you here. This applies when one comes in the name of the Lord and says thus saith the Lord. When God speaks to a prophet and the prophet takes those particular words to God's people, then the prophet is not going to be in error or he is no prophet of God. When I spoke of a prophet making mistakes, I was thinking more along the lines of the prophet who led the other prophet to be eaten by a lion due to disobedience. That prophet never saw it coming but was deceived instead. Thus showing that not all is always revealed unto the prophets. This discussion is becoming fruitful for me as well as my personal study that I am conducting on the side. I'm wondering if there is a difference between having the gift of prophecy and simply having ones understanding enlightened to comprehend that which is prophetic in scripture. More study needed. Thanks for the participation in the thread to date. Gary I think the general gist of what Wingnut posted here is that if God is speaking through someone, He's speaking through someone. If He's not, He's not. If someone says He is and their claims, prophecies, predictions, what have you, don't come to pass, then obviously they can't be trusted as a source of prophetical information any further. This bears out scripturally as far as I read it and as far as Wing posted it. Furthermore, I think that if someone out and out says that God is guiding them in interpretation of prophecy this would have to apply as well, because God doesn't make mistakes, ever. I would agree that if God is the one guiding their will be no mistake in the interpretation with the exception that it is possible for the student to get ahead of the teacher and think they are being shown something they are not. Gary That would still imply that the teacher made a mistake by picking that student or that the teacher was too weak to guide that student in the proper direction. The main difference here has to be with regards to personal conviction and then overall message outside of the personal. So sometimes God teaches me a lesson, I know this. I think everybody here who is a brother or sister has experienced this in some form or fashion. This is personal conviction. When you start talking about prophecy, though, leading others, God gives us clear lines of delineation for who to believe and who not to believe and being right isn't the only one, either, but being wrong is definitely a non-starter. God doesn't give vessels false information nor does he choose vessels that will bring his message incorrectly, that simple. That's the problem I have with the "thinking they are being shown something they are not." There's no room for this! If it's true it's true and if it's not it's not, wouldn't the choice of vessel matter as much as the message and wouldn't both bear on whether or not God was giving accurate prophetical interpretation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 That would still imply that the teacher made a mistake by picking that student or that the teacher was too weak to guide that student in the proper direction. The main difference here has to be with regards to personal conviction and then overall message outside of the personal. So sometimes God teaches me a lesson, I know this. I think everybody here who is a brother or sister has experienced this in some form or fashion. This is personal conviction. When you start talking about prophecy, though, leading others, God gives us clear lines of delineation for who to believe and who not to believe and being right isn't the only one, either, but being wrong is definitely a non-starter. God doesn't give vessels false information nor does he choose vessels that will bring his message incorrectly, that simple. That's the problem I have with the "thinking they are being shown something they are not." There's no room for this! If it's true it's true and if it's not it's not, wouldn't the choice of vessel matter as much as the message and wouldn't both bear on whether or not God was giving accurate prophetical interpretation? Steve, I'd like to understand your position clearly. Can you show it from scripture to help me out? I understand the text about testing prophets. Can you show the example of one who learns via 'personal conviction' and is sometimes right and other times wrong. How they received their information and how the interpretation became skewed. I see where we are shown in scripture that the actual scriptures are given perfectly as the prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit as they spake but we also see understanding of the text come to a prophet simply while he is reading the scriptures himself such as Daniel and that prophet was moved to seek God due to that which was revealed unto him. The latter is more of what I am talking about. Is this what you call 'personal conviction'? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2012 That would still imply that the teacher made a mistake by picking that student or that the teacher was too weak to guide that student in the proper direction. The main difference here has to be with regards to personal conviction and then overall message outside of the personal. So sometimes God teaches me a lesson, I know this. I think everybody here who is a brother or sister has experienced this in some form or fashion. This is personal conviction. When you start talking about prophecy, though, leading others, God gives us clear lines of delineation for who to believe and who not to believe and being right isn't the only one, either, but being wrong is definitely a non-starter. God doesn't give vessels false information nor does he choose vessels that will bring his message incorrectly, that simple. That's the problem I have with the "thinking they are being shown something they are not." There's no room for this! If it's true it's true and if it's not it's not, wouldn't the choice of vessel matter as much as the message and wouldn't both bear on whether or not God was giving accurate prophetical interpretation? Steve, I'd like to understand your position clearly. Can you show it from scripture to help me out? I understand the text about testing prophets. Can you show the example of one who learns via 'personal conviction' and is sometimes right and other times wrong. How they received their information and how the interpretation became skewed. I see where we are shown in scripture that the actual scriptures are given perfectly as the prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit as they spake but we also see understanding of the text come to a prophet simply while he is reading the scriptures himself such as Daniel and that prophet was moved to seek God due to that which was revealed unto him. The latter is more of what I am talking about. Is this what you call 'personal conviction'? Gary No, personal conviction was with regards to God teaching us lessons in our own personal lives. In other words, your parents may let you touch a stove eye just so you know it can burn you sort of thing. I was just clarifying that I don't believe that because someone misunderstands a message from God that they aren't a Christian. I do, however, believe that if someone misunderstands a message from God that they are most definitely not a prophet. Hopefully this explains it better, I realize now looking back upon it that it was poorly worded. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 No, personal conviction was with regards to God teaching us lessons in our own personal lives. In other words, your parents may let you touch a stove eye just so you know it can burn you sort of thing. I was just clarifying that I don't believe that because someone misunderstands a message from God that they aren't a Christian. I do, however, believe that if someone misunderstands a message from God that they are most definitely not a prophet. Hopefully this explains it better, I realize now looking back upon it that it was poorly worded. Steve Communication is the hardest thing we will ever do in this life. You don't believe that a prophet can make the mistake of leaning on his own understanding and mistaking it for revelation from God? Have you ever had direct revelation from God, where you did not know something one moment but completely understood the next? This is where I am having my trouble at. There is a fine line between that which is conceived in the mind of man through reason and that which is simply revealed. The processes are very similar in nature but distinct one from another. Just not to the degree that makes it impossible to mistake one with the other and possibly end up in error thinking God revealed something he did not. Speaking by the Holy Spirit as a form of prophesying being completely different. Maybe what I am describing is not the gift of prophecy. That is what this thread is meant to help me discern. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2012 No, personal conviction was with regards to God teaching us lessons in our own personal lives. In other words, your parents may let you touch a stove eye just so you know it can burn you sort of thing. I was just clarifying that I don't believe that because someone misunderstands a message from God that they aren't a Christian. I do, however, believe that if someone misunderstands a message from God that they are most definitely not a prophet. Hopefully this explains it better, I realize now looking back upon it that it was poorly worded. Steve Communication is the hardest thing we will ever do in this life. You don't believe that a prophet can make the mistake of leaning on his own understanding and mistaking it for revelation from God? Have you ever had direct revelation from God, where you did not know something one moment but completely understood the next? This is where I am having my trouble at. There is a fine line between that which is conceived in the mind of man through reason and that which is simply revealed. The processes are very similar in nature but distinct one from another. Just not to the degree that makes it impossible to mistake one with the other and possibly end up in error thinking God revealed something he did not. Speaking by the Holy Spirit as a form of prophesying being completely different. Maybe what I am describing is not the gift of prophecy. That is what this thread is meant to help me discern. Gary The way I feel about that is that it has to fall under that umbrella if God is leading you out to direct other people or to inform them on His behalf. So, in other words, I've had instances (I won't go into detail) where I knew God was addressing something with me personally and I was and still am absolutely doubtless as to the source of it. The main way that I can know this is that it was scriptural and was clearly what I needed to change a direction I had been heading in. I wouldn't call it a prophecy or a revelation, because I don't believe it was. I believe it was stern guidance from a God who is never going to abandon me, and I needed to know that then as much as I needed to be guided. When you get into actually guiding other people, though. Prophetical interpretation is just as important a function as prophesying, if you think about it. Daniel interpreted the prophetical dreams of Nebuchadnezzar. This was an incredibly important function at that time. God gave Daniel the ability to interpret just like He gave him the ability to prophecy. I don't really see how the two could be mutually exclusive as far as application. I would provide that if this were personal study, yes, I could definitely see not hearing properly or getting ahead of yourself or what have you. But if this is revelational interpretation (i.e. discerning things Biblically that you are meant to bring to other people) I'd stand by the logic that God would provide you not only with the interpretation but the ability to accurately dissect and verbalize it if indeed you were supposed to be taking it to others. Credibility is important, obviously. So if you're coming with a message from God it has to be credible to the utmost, entirely accurate, and unimpeachable, and there are still other burdens that need to be met even after that, whether it be prophecy or guided interpretation. This is just my opinion. I believe it's scripturally logical, though. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 I'm following you Steve and I am trying to work through all of this. I am a bit confused. I wish it were as simple as having a direct answer from God that explains it in detail. The last thing I ever want to do is credit God with something that isn't from him or to hold back that which is from him that he intends me to bring to another. But I am lacking clarity in the matter. All of that which I am seeing neatly fits together to explain much of the overall plan of God concerning the creation and the perfecting of it. I am convinced that I have received direct revelation from God concerning understanding of various scriptures that I have confessed that I did not understand and asked to be given understanding. I am also convinced that I have had spirits who are not of God come to me and try to persuade me to believe in false teachings such as Mormonism, Jehovah Witness and Islam. These have reasoned with me in attempt to seduce me into believing the doctrines of devils. With each one I have had another inner voice that offers scripture to shoot down what is presented. When this has happened it is almost as if I am merely a spectator listening to the arguments being presented and then deciding who I will choose to believe. There is always one who has won out over the others. This is the one that I have identified as being of God. The problem is that none of this is actually audible within me. It isn't as if I hear someone talking but I distinctly understand it to be coming from my heart and not my mind. I wish there were an easy explanation so that I can understand what I am supposed to do with it all. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2012 I'm with you here. This applies when one comes in the name of the Lord and says thus saith the Lord. When God speaks to a prophet and the prophet takes those particular words to God's people, then the prophet is not going to be in error or he is no prophet of God. When I spoke of a prophet making mistakes, I was thinking more along the lines of the prophet who led the other prophet to be eaten by a lion due to disobedience. That prophet never saw it coming but was deceived instead. Thus showing that not all is always revealed unto the prophets. This discussion is becoming fruitful for me as well as my personal study that I am conducting on the side. I'm wondering if there is a difference between having the gift of prophecy and simply having ones understanding enlightened to comprehend that which is prophetic in scripture. More study needed. Thanks for the participation in the thread to date. Gary I am not certain about the matter of the prophet being devoured by the lion as I cannot recall the story, perhaps you could point me to the scripture and I could provide something helpful in regards to it. I don't want to respond on a matter that is escaping my memory though. As far as is there a difference between the gift of prophecy and the understanding of scripture I would say yes, absolutely. I believe sevenseas referenced this in an earlier post, wisdom or knowledge would certainly fit under that banner so to speak. I have enjoyed discussing this as well, hopefully we all grow from the discussion, God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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