Bold Believer Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The wrath of God is otherwise called the GREAT tribulation. Can you prove this with scripture? Alls ive found is the Day of the Lord is the day of Gods wrath. Not the trib period. But if you can show me scripture that says otherwise please do so. I think this is very important. Does the Day of the Lord begin after the trib or do some believe as Willamina that the beginning of the trib marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The wrath of God is never referred to as the 'great tribulation'. Thlipsis is a general word meaning distress or trouble, there is no special meaning for it. John states in Revelation 1:9 that he is the companion of those believers to whom he is writing in tribulation. Same word. Does mean that the church went through the tribulation? No. (He was referring to the Neronian persecution.) Theologians have attached much to many Greek words in the New Testament when in reality they are simple ordinary everyday words which no 1st century believer would have thought anything special about at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) The Day of the Lord is shown in a couple of contexts,,,one it means when the wrath of God begins ...two it is stated as the day that LORD Jesus returns ,, depends on who wrote it and the context of what they were saying the great trib leads into the wrath , great trib starts out with the antichrist rule and goes straight into the wrath of God during the great trib ,,they overlap They do not overlap according to scripture DanielzK MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be darkened and the moon wont be shining. ISAIAH 13 [6] Howl ye; for THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [7] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: [8] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. [9] BEHOLD, THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. [10] For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN HIS GOING FORTH, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE. [11] And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. The sun is darkened and the moon shall not give light when The Day of the Lord begins JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME. In Joel we find the sun is darkened and the moon turned into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: There can be no doubt. Joel and Matthew are speaking of the same event. Joel calls this event "the day of the Lord". Joel says the the sun will be darkened BEFORE the "day of the Lord". Matthew says the sun will be darkened AFTER the tribulation. So there can be no doubt that the Day of the Lord begins AFTER the tribulation period Found this in Mark MARK 13 [19] For IN THOSE DAYS SHALL BE AFFLICTION, SUCH AS WAS NOT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.[24] BUT IN THOSE DAYS, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Just adding to the proof that the Day of the Lord begins AFTER the great trib period PS- Look at verse 27. The gathering. The rapturist will claim this has nothing to do with the 1Cor.15 event. But....its surely one and the same Edited October 15, 2012 by WailingWall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 After reading all those scriptures your gonna try and tell me........YIKES Well...im beginning to understand a little better the mindset of the rapturist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 There is no break period of time they are a continuous event one after the other , but for a short period they run concurrent, I don't have a bible with me right now ,, but where you are in error is ... My error? I didnt write the book of Matthew. I didnt write the book of Mark. I didnt write the book of Joel. If ya have a beef, its with them not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,656 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2012 I am sorry that I can't keep up with this as much as I would like to. I am going blind and am awaiting surgery in both eyes. It causes the better eye to tire very quickly so I don't have much time that I can see to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Sorry to hear about that Willamina. Hope surgery goes well. Be praying for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted October 15, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The day of the Lord begins at second comming and lasts 1000 years. Seems like Peter says something about a day being 1000 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 16, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 16, 2012 OneLight: The problem I have with pretrib is if Christ came for the church before the tribulation begins, He must be coming a second time after the 6th bowl, which there is no backing in scripture for. Jesus is only returning for His church once. Onelight, it depends on how you examine Matt chapter 24................. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. At that time. What time? A time this earth has never seen, a time of great trouble and destruction. We are delivered "Before" the trouble, not after the trouble. If it's after, then no need to mention this. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. AT THAT TIME WE ARE DELIVERED!!!! First, please don't use large fonts to make a point. I don't like being screamed at and it diminishes the message of your posts. I believe you are an intelligent adult, so don't post like a child. Being delivered does not have to mean being taken out of the picture all together as you point to, but being kept safe from. Jesus tells that group........ as soon as the sixth seal is broken, the Seventh Angelic trumpet is sounded, then Tribulation ends. He comes IMMEDIATELY after that seventh angelic trumpet is sounded, on top of the sixth seal being broken. (Rev 6) Really? How is it that the 7th seal brings in the trumpets? They fall in sequence, on concurrent. Revelation 8:1-3 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. We can pinpoint that exactly by following the events in order. 3 1/2 years after the Antichrist sets up in Israel and calls himself God, in case we missed thousands dying in a event. Jesus Repeats Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. What things........ the gospel being preached all over the World........ the fig tree (Watch Israel) That Generation will see this next event Jesus is going to describe. Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. No man will know the day or hour................ We will know the season..... Watch the fig tree, watch the gospel............... 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. STOP............... The Lord comes as a thief, we don't know the day or hour........ as soon as he comes, then SUDDEN destruction. The day of the Lord, or God's wrath starts........... This is another Event.............. Event one Jesus tells us Immediately after the tribulation he comes. AFTER THE DESTRUCTION!!!! You are not making any sense here. First you say that "... as soon as he comes, then SUDDEN destruction. The day of the Lord, or God's wrath starts.....", then you say "Jesus tells us Immediately after the tribulation he comes. AFTER THE DESTRUCTION!!!!" Which is it? ]Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be Event 2................ Jesus comes for the Church.... (Out of order, but who is going to correct the Lord?) Nobody on earth knew a thing until Noah was put in safety, then sudden destruction. How are we rescued? Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. The Lord takes us............ Not the same event of the Lord with the Angels that reap the earth harvest................. Jesus is only talking next to those that call him Lord........ When He comes, what will he find us doing? He does not discuss the tares...... Just those that call him Lord. Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 2 Events............ One immediately after the tribulation...... One we know the season, but not day or hour and that event is only for those as be the Lords, just like Noah was. Stay ready. Jesus Is Lord. I suggest you sit down, draw a timeline, and place scripture on it according to what the Bible says when it will happen. Include all the prophetic messages that point to the tribulation, being caught up, the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls. Your understanding of the end times will become clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 16, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,656 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 16, 2012 Does not help much when my eyes are tired but it does help my better eye a little. Can't keep anything in focus anymore and am using one eye exclusively. But My brain keeps trying to fuse the two images which strains the eyes and just makes everything blurry. My eyes/brain even tries to switch dominance which only makes it worse. So my reading is limited and research is even more limited. Thank you for your concern. I will try to put my two bits in occasionally. Oh well, all things work for good----. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 16, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 16, 2012 Onelight: You are not making any sense here. First you say that "... as soon as he comes, then SUDDEN destruction. The day of the Lord, or God's wrath starts.....", then you say "Jesus tells us Immediately after the tribulation he comes. AFTER THE DESTRUCTION!!!!" Which is it? The point was and time line is....... (sorry for my style of trying to be clear. I was not attempting to yell or put down) As Paul stated, the Lord comes as a thief and unexpected, then Paul said right after that...... Sudden destruction, when everyone said peace and safety. Matt 24 gives 2 events. Jesus speaking with those that Keep the sabbath and in Judea, and those that call him Lord. The first event He comes after the sixth seal is released. (sun-moon) This also brings the seventh angelic trumpet. He comes Immediately when tribulation ends..... No guessing when he comes. The other event was before destruction as described in Danial, and Paul. Jesus comes (As a Thief, Unexpected, the Earth not having a clue), one is taken the other left which denotes how we escape the wrath to come. I don't know how to be more clear. Sorry. Jesus Is Lord. That is not scriptural. There is only one coming of Christ. The rapture is not a coming, but us being caught up. This "rapture" will be at the last trump. You must of missed what I said about the seals and trumpets. Let me remind you. Jesus tells that group........ as soon as the sixth seal is broken, the Seventh Angelic trumpet is sounded, then Tribulation ends. He comes IMMEDIATELY after that seventh angelic trumpet is sounded, on top of the sixth seal being broken. (Rev 6) Really? How is it that the 7th seal brings in the trumpets? They fall in sequence, on concurrent. Revelation 8:1-3 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Your timing and terminology are off. The seals have to first be opened before the trumpets are even given to be blown. The 7th seal is when the trumpets are given, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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