Church and State

[Guest glorytothelord]

My belief is that Church and State, being separate entities, should also be separate when it comes to government ie. the government of the country should be by civilians and the Churches by the leaders of whichever denomination it may be.

Opinions please.

Glory.

[Guest yod]

Isn't that how it is now?

I can't remember anyone but a "civilian" ever being in government. What does that have to do with the church, though?

Are you trying to say that only secular atheists should be allowed to hold public office?

[apothanein kerdos]

The problem is that people take the concept of Church and State too far. What Thomas Jefferson meant in 1802 when he coined this phrase was that the government cannot make any law that respects or benefits a religion when it does not benefit the community. Such as what was occuring with the Danbury Baptist Association in that they were being charged a tax by the Anglican church and this was supported by the local government. However moral laws can be seen to benefit the community thus are allowed.

[RGR]

The problem is that people take the concept of Church and State too far. What Thomas Jefferson meant in 1802 when he coined this phrase was that the government cannot make any law that respects or benefits a religion when it does not benefit the community. Such as what was occuring with the Danbury Baptist Association in that they were being charged a tax by the Anglican church and this was supported by the local government. However moral laws can be seen to benefit the community thus are allowed.

To top that off, though I don't remember the source, Jefferson said he wasn't the utmost authority on the Constitution when asked for his opinion on something and referred the person to someone else who in his opinion was more knowledgable.

[apothanein kerdos]

The problem is that people take the concept of Church and State too far. What Thomas Jefferson meant in 1802 when he coined this phrase was that the government cannot make any law that respects or benefits a religion when it does not benefit the community. Such as what was occuring with the Danbury Baptist Association in that they were being charged a tax by the Anglican church and this was supported by the local government. However moral laws can be seen to benefit the community thus are allowed.

To top that off, though I don't remember the source, Jefferson said he wasn't the utmost authority on the Constitution when asked for his opinion on something and referred the person to someone else who in his opinion was more knowledgable.

Jefferson was in France when the during the writing and ratification of the constitution so it would be logical he'd do this, however I never saw that in his letter.

What is interesting is that many people choose to ignore the entire letter and even the unedited version. Jefferson closes the letter out asking for prayers. Likewise, in the unedited version he explains what he means by "Seperation of Church and state":

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State. Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect,Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience I shall see with friendly dispositions the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced that he has no natural rights in opposition to his social duties. (bold is the edited part)

So, at least to me, by looking at the original text, we can see exactly what Jefferson meant.

[IreneM]

this would go over real big in the state of utah if they had to seprate the 2 in that state.

just a pun no insult intended

In Christ

IreneM

[Guest antitox]

This is stating that congress can make no law concerning religion. This intent was to prevent a state religion from being enacted. That's where the cause of freedom is allowed in individual worship throughout the nation. Today's justices/judges totally misinterpret this (with the help of crooked lawyers) to mean that there can be no religious expression or objects allowed in public places (especially Christianity) which is absurd. Freedom is being eroded on the basis of corrupt interpretation.

[apothanein kerdos]

This is stating that congress can make no law concerning religion. This intent was to prevent a state religion from being enacted. That's where the cause of freedom is allowed in individual worship throughout the nation. Today's justices/judges totally misinterpret this (with the help of crooked lawyers) to mean that there can be no religious expression or objects allowed in public places (especially Christianity) which is absurd. Freedom is being eroded on the basis of corrupt interpretation.

They just need to be fair if they do it. If the local city hall put up a nativity scene because some Christians wanted it, they would have to put up decorations for a Muslim holiday when one rolled around as well.

[Az_]

They just need to be fair if they do it. If the local city hall put up a nativity scene because some Christians wanted it, they would have to put up decorations for a Muslim holiday when one rolled around as well.

And that's where the problem comes in. The typical response ranges from resisting any nonChristian displays to hiding them. Do you know how many religions there are in this country let alone the world? If every religion that wanted to have access to public land had to be granted access there would be no room left in the parks. Entire government buildings would be given over entirely to housing religious displays.

Lets put it this way. Satanism is a recongised religion. Do you really want the US government displaying a tribute to Satan?

The best course for government and religion is to not get involved with one another. Your churches and houses are where you should display your religious zeal. In that format it is an appropriate display of personal pride and joyousness about your beliefs. But in a government setting it becomes so many other things that your message of love and joy are occluded and all that comes through is oppression and competition.

[His son]

Lets go with what God says.

Deut 17:14-15

14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

(KJV)

Judg 5:9

9 My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the LORD.

(KJV)

Judg 5:14

14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

(KJV)

Ps 22:28

28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

(KJV)

Ps 47:2-3

2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.

3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.

(KJV)

Ps 47:7-8

7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.

8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.

(KJV)

Isa 9:7

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(KJV)

Hosea 8:4

4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

(KJV)

Matt 2:6

6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

(KJV)

2 Pet 2:10

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

(KJV)

To take God out of government is an act of foolishness, and dirct disobedience, and this country will pay a big price for doing so.