Hallelujah:THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE :)

[John3;16]

Leonard

How about ONE proof there's NO rapture?

John 17: (Jesus Speaking) "Father, do NOT take them out of the world...."

Are you speaking of what Jesus prayed in reference to his deciples, and if you equate this with the Church, the Church is still in the world, but one day he will return and gather up his followers, as far as the tribulation period, why have Christians who lived through the past two centuries escaped the great tribulation?, why have some believers been under great tribulation during the past two centries, and others have lived relivity free from great persucation? what I do know is that Jesus said he would not leave us or forsake us, he said: greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world, he said he would keep us from that hour of temptation, that he would not alloy us to be tempted beyond that which we are able to bear, If you look at the bowl and trump judgments they are upon those who do not belong to the Lord, the persucations that come against Gods people will be from the Anti-Christ and his followers, during this time if you confess Jesus they will behead you, but if you follow precept upon precept and desern scripture then some of you post trib, pre-wrath might come to understand dispensation, and context, which from what I've seen so far from most (not all) post trib'ers responding, is a complete lack of!

John|17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John|17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

John|17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John|17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

John|17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John|17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John|17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John|17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

John|17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John|17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father,

[Guest hubertdorm]

jc, I'm trying to split up my responses in 5's to avoid lenghty posts. But here are my thoughts on your first 5 proofs.

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.

True. However, in chapter 20, John sees the souls of those beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast alive and reigning with Christ on thrones. He then describes this as the first resurrection. But, he didn

[Guest hubertdorm]

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)

Again, I have problems believing that the church can be represented by anyone other than Jesus Christ. Even many pre-tribbers have problems translating this as the Rapture.

Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.

The elders also sit on thrones. Christians will not sit on thrones until Christ

[Trinity]

ugh... here we go again...

Bottom line, Jesus is still God, same yesterday today and forever. He will reign! and he will fight on the Great day of the Jehovah! and Jehovah will win because he is the king of kings and Lord of lords, the great God and king.

[Guest hubertdorm]

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.

1 Thessalonians 4 says nothing about the wicked being left behind. It doesn

[irishcowboy]

So, what? We go up to heaven for seven years, then come back down? Seems like a waste of

[Guest hubertdorm]

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.

The Church doesn

[Guest hubertdorm]

that is just the Wedding feast....... after that is when we come back with Christ Jesus leading us into battle at Armageddon

Revelation 19 (the second coming) shows that the wedding feast is about to take place, so it would be impossible to have had the feast during the previous seven years. Know that there is no mention of the banquet taking place in heaven. Instead Isaiah 24-25 tells of a great feast during the millennium on Mount Zion.

Luke 22:16-18 'For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.' After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, 'Take this and divide it among you. For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.'

After Jesus' resurrection, he did eat before them (Luke 24:42), but it wasn't the passover meal, and the kingdom had not yet come. The church itself had not even been established yet. The Kingdom does not come at a Rapture 7 years before Christ does.

after that battle, ( both battles are already won by Gods Team ) of gog and magog, then we see the new heaven and new earth and new jerusalem.......

Actually, the new heaven and new earth is created at Christ's second coming, not at the end of the battle of Gog and Magog.

Revelation 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Though John hasn't written about the new heaven and earth yet, he does write that the old heave and earth have already passed away by this point.

2 Peter 3:12-13 ...That day (the day of the Lord) will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Both in Old Testament and New Testament passages, the day of the Lord, the event after the tribulation, the day of God's wrath, is when Jesus returns in flames to take wrath upon the nations. It does not occur at the end of the millennium.