Everlasting Covenant

[Guest]

What is God telling you.... ? Israel, like so many other physical entities were just copies, foreshadows of what is real and what was to come.

You keep looking for an earthly Israel, just like you keep looking for an earthly city and earthly temple to be built.

And Just What Is God Telling You Dear One

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

That His Word Is Now Null And Void?

Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. Zechariah 8:1-8

That He's Forgotten His First Love?

But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Isaiah 49:14-16

And He's Misplaced His Bride?

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

~

Just Who Is God?

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32

And What Have You Done?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25-27

With Him?

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Acts 3:13

And With His Beloved Jerusalem?

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9

Hum....

~

Believe

And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it. Mark 15:2

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[hippias]

You are quoting mostly verses from the OLD testament in order to find an answer to my question, yet I think it should be NEW testament that will shed a light on the covenant.

Bu your position isn't even supported in the New Testament.

When I read for example Jesus cursing the scribes and Pharisees:

e.g. "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men, for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in " (Matthew 23:13) and

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (33),

Jesus is speaking to His enemies among the Jewish leadership. He is not condemning all of the Jews.

ending with Jesus lamenting:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth till ye shall say, ‘Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!’” (37-39)

But none of that says that God is no longer the God of the Jews. That is a claim that you are trying to assign to the NT, not a statement that the NT ever says. Jesus was lamenting how His people had rejected Him, but keep in mind that In Romans 9, 10 and 11, this was a partial hardening that took place to make room for the Gentiles to be included in the Kingdom of God. So this is not about God rejecting them as His people.

I really don't see in what respect God should be the godhead of the people adresses in these verses. To me Jesus clearly says: If you don't change your ways you shall be damned. And that does not seem at all what God promised Abraham and his descendants in Genesis.

Well fortunately, for the truth, God doesn't see it your way and does not hold to how you think things should be. God is faithful to us even when we mess up and mess up big. Your approach casts doubt on the faithfulness of God in keeping His promises to Israel. Would you like to be faithful to you when you mess up, and disobey, or would you like God to cease being your God when you need Him the most???

I find it rather strange that some people expect God to condemn the Jews when they mess up, are the same people calling on God's mercy when it comes to their own sin.

shilo and all: I can't spend much time on this discussion and try to respond later:

Apparently it depends on what one thinks it means that God is the god of someone: if it is entirely irrelevant for God being the god of a people if they believe in Him and how they worship then you are right of course, that God can be still considered the Jews god.

I am not arguing that God rejected the Jews: I just don't understand in what respect the Abramaic covenant could possibly considered valid if God made a new covenant through Jesus which pious Jews deny and don't regard.

I am very well aware that Jesus did not curse all Jews in Matthew but gave you a scriptual example why it is hard to understand for me why God should be considered the god of ALL of Abraham's off-spring - no doubt the Parisee's mentioned did have a common belief that was shared more or less by most of the contemporary Jews, and not to forget: The Pharisaism became the dominant school of judaism!

Furthermore, Jesus says: "21 “Not every one that saith unto Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?’ 23 And then will I profess unto them, ‘I

never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.’" (Matthew 7:21-3)

How is God the god of the many of Abraham's seed adressed here? I just don't see it.

Furthermore, in the covenant from Genesis 17, God says that circumcision is the token of the covenant, in particular:

And the uncircumcised manchild whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant. (Gen. 17:14)

That condition of circumcision is definitely annihilated in the New Testament (Galatians 5, and here are not only a select few enemies adressed), hence the conditions and promises of God did alter in course of time. Which to my understanding makes the approbiateness of the words "everlasting" hard to understand.

It is very simple: Jesus says:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6)

Jews deny the veracity of this statement. How can thus the Christian God be the god of Jews?

[Fez]

It is very simple: Jesus says:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6)

Jews deny the veracity of this statement. How can thus the Christian God be the god of Jews?

So let me get this right. You are saying that there are two Gods, or the Jews have no God?

[OneLight]

PGA, you are trying really hard to back your theology of Replacement Theory by taking scripture out of context. The line of Abraham is Gods chosen people. We are grafted into this line. You could not refute the scripture I posted, so you decided to take a different path. The Replacement Theory is a false teaching. -OL

Where have I done this OneLight? I took you to the OT to show you that God called His people - Israel - by various horticultural terms, such as a vine, a fig tree, branch and sometimes with derogatory terms like the vine of Sodom. We are told in the NT that all the Scriptures speak of Christ. Luke 24:25-27 says as much:

Do you deny you follow the Replacement Theory? Those who follow the Replacement Theory try to remove the covenant God has with the line of Abraham by claiming since they rejected Jesus, the covenant is no longer upheld. The Jewish people are His people and He will bring them back to Him, those who choose follow Him. Why do you think God brought them back to their land? Why would God send them the 144,000 to witness to them if they are to be discarded? WHy does everything still center around the Jewish people? You cannot discard His words toward them, or take them for yourself. They are meant for them. Christ came for us all, the covenants with them are theirs.

What is God telling you OneLight? Israel, like so many other physical entities were just copies, foreshadows of what is real and what was to come.

You keep looking for an earthly Israel, just like you keep looking for an earthly city and earthly temple to be built.

Peter

The line of Abraham are His people, have been and always will be. What I look at is Gods covenant with them, not the "earthly Israel" as you claim. How He will do this is not clear, but He would not waste His time with them if His covenant no longer exists. They will see Christ for who He is through all that has happened, is happening and will happen.

The real question is what is God saying to you, not a theory of man, but God Himself, through His word about His covenant with the linage of Abraham?

[Guest]

It is very simple: Jesus says:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6)

Jews deny the veracity of this statement. How can thus the Christian God be the god of Jews?

It Is Very Simple

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:3

Jesus Saves

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

Gentiles

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:17-20

Don't

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

[hippias]

It is very simple: Jesus says:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6)

Jews deny the veracity of this statement. How can thus the Christian God be the god of Jews?

So let me get this right. You are saying that there are two Gods, or the Jews have no God?

No. Or I don't know: That is why I started this thread. In Genesis 17 God promised Abraham to be his and his descendants God forever (Gen. 17:8) . I don't know how this can be reconciled with the new covenant made by Jesus.

[PGA]

It is very simple: Jesus says:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6)

Jews deny the veracity of this statement. How can thus the Christian God be the god of Jews?

So let me get this right. You are saying that there are two Gods, or the Jews have no God?

No. Or I don't know: That is why I started this thread. In Genesis 17 God promised Abraham to be his and his descendants God forever (Gen. 17:8) . I don't know how this can be reconciled with the new covenant made by Jesus.

Hi Hippias,

Because Jesus fulfilled every promise of God, both in the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants.

Galatians 3:26-4:7

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Sons of God

²⁶ You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, ²⁷ for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. ²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ²⁹ If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

4 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. ² He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. ³ So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. ⁴ But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,⁵ to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. ⁶ Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,^[a] Father.” ⁷ So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Footnotes:

1. Galatians 4:6 Aramaic for Father
   

You see, the Jews were trying to teach that only those who did everything according to the law were sons of Abraham, yet they never met the full requirements of the law themselves. The faithful remnant spoken about throughout the OT were trusting God and looking ahead to Jesus. reading the passage below hopefully explains this:

Galatians 3:6-25

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁶ Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^{[a] 7} Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. ⁸ The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”^{[b] 9} So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

¹⁰ All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”^{[c] 11} Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”^{[d] 12} The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”^{[e] 13} Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”^{[f] 14} He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

¹⁵ Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. ¹⁶ The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”^[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. ¹⁷ What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. ¹⁸ For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

¹⁹ What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. ²⁰ A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

²¹ Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. ²² But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

²³ Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. ²⁴ So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ^[h] that we might be justified by faith. ²⁵ Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Footnotes:

1. Galatians 3:6 Gen. 15:6
   
2. Galatians 3:8 Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 22:18
   
3. Galatians 3:10 Deut. 27:26
   
4. Galatians 3:11 Hab. 2:4
   
5. Galatians 3:12 Lev. 18:5
   
6. Galatians 3:13 Deut. 21:23
   
7. Galatians 3:16 Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7
   
8. Galatians 3:24 Or charge until Christ came
   

Jesus set aside the 1st covenant to establish the second because He fulfilled it completely for those who have faith/trust/reliance in Him.

You see, the Jews were still trying to make people accountable to the letter of the Law, yet Paul was teaching that in Christ the full letter of the Law had been met. The Old Covenant was about to be totally done away with in A.D. 70 because Jesus had met every promise of the Law. The Hebrew Christians written to in the Book of Hebrews were in danger of sliding back into Judaism. The author was warning them of the better covenant, the better promises in Christ that comes through faith in Him. The two covenants existed side by side for approximately 40 years from Christ's death and resurrection until A.D. 70 at which time there was no more Old Covenant. Just as God had warned the unfaithful generation in the desert during the time of Moses, the first mediator, so He now warned this current generation to flee from the coming wrath, because only the faithful remnant crossed into the Promised Land, physical Israel, along with the children born during the 40 years wandering in the desert. Likewise, Jesus as the Second Moses, the Mediator of the New Covenant, is warning those of unbelief that they would not enter the true Promised Land, the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God unless they repented and put their trust in Him/Jesus, and this is exactly what we see. Just as God bought judgment on the nation of Israel for breaking His covenant in OT times by keeping them from the Promised Land, or taking them into Babylonian captivity, so we see the same pattern here. This generation of vipers that Jesus came to never entered His rest, only those who trusted in Him did.

Remember, in the covenant that God established with Israel there were blessings and curses - blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Christ became the curse for those who believe. It was an If/Then covenant and binding on their good works, not faith. But He also fully met every jot and title of the law by being faithful to this covenant that they could not meet. Remember, not one jot or title of the Law (of Moses) and the Prophets would be done away with until all was accomplished/fulfilled/completed (Matthew 5:17-18). The circumcision of the old covenant was a physical act done to show belief, whereas the circumcision of the new covenant is circumcision of the heart/belief of the heart in the Lord Jesus Christ. Constantly in the NT we see that the circumcision in the NT is puttting off the sinful nature, not a physical circuumcision that was required in the OT, because in Christ the covenant had changed in Himfully meeting the OT and in Hebrews 8:13 we see that what was old and obsolete was about to pass away (A.D. 70). The two covenants existed side by side for that generation.

In the OT there were promises of blessings for obedience and promises of curses for disobedience. If you read (I won't copy it out here - it would be too long) Deuteronomy 28-32 you will see the conditions of the covenant - what was required and the consequences of unbelief and worshiping false gods, whatever they may be. God promised to remove and destroy them from the land if they were disobedient, but restore them to the land if they repented and were obedient (Deut. 30:1-10) and we see this happen in the OT times, most notably in those who never entered the Promised Land and in the Babylonian captivity. We see God judge/punish unbelief, and when the people repented He restore Israel to her land, which is a type and shadow of the true Promised Land, the heavenly country, that Abraham and others were waiting for (Hebrews 11:8-16 - please read to understand). Jesus came to restore true Israel (those in Himself) to the better land, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Throughout the OT we see the shadow of the realities of what was coming; we see two Jerusalem's, two peoples - the faithful remnant and the faithless unbelievers, two mountains which represent two covenants - Mount Sinai and Mount Zion, two cities - earthly Jerusalem and heavenly Jerusalem. Everything is pointing to the fulfillment in Christ Jesus.

The realities of the two covenants are explained in places like Galatians 4 or Colossians 2:6-23, especially verse 17).

You see, God was faithful to OT Israel even though they were not faithful to Him. To the unbelievers He gave them the curses He had promised, and to the believers He gave them the blessing of obedience (and a better land), no more so than when He sent His Son, the Hope of Israel, into the world to restore Israel of God, the true Israel of faith. Jacob who God named Israel was a picture of Christ, the true Israel. Out of Jacob came the twelve tribes that we call OT Israel. Out of Christ comes the new Israel of God, and the twelve disciples teach a new birth, being reborn in Christ Jesus and thus entering the kingdom.

2 Corinthians 1:18-22

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁸ But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” ¹⁹ For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas^[a] and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” ²⁰ For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. ²¹ Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, ²² set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

What is to come came in A.D 70. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of God and went into the true sanctuary (Hebrews 2:8), He waited for His enemies to be made His footstool - and the Jews for the most part were enemies of the gospel and they persecuted the church (the true Israel, the body of Christ). To the believer who was in danger of turning back to Judaism the message was:

Hebrews 10:35-39

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁵ So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. ³⁶ You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. ³⁷ For in just a very little while,

“He who is coming will come and will not delay.

³⁸ But my righteous one^[a] will live by faith.

And if he shrinks back,

I will not be pleased with him.”^[b]

³⁹ But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Footnotes:

1. Hebrews 10:38 One early manuscript But the righteous
   
2. Hebrews 10:38 Hab. 2:3,4
   

Incidentally, I mentioned the kingdom of Christ/God/heaven above briefly when I mentioned the new birth, not a physical birth, but a spiritual birth.

Just as David was king over the kingdom in the OT, so Jesus sits on the throne of David in the NT, and it is obvious when this happened. It happened when He ascended to the Father (Daniel 7:13-14; Matthew 24:30). He gave the high priest and the members of the Sanhedrin confirmation of this in Matthew 26:63-64 when He told the high priest that he would see in his lifetime the Son of Man coming in His kingdom, for what is the glory of the Lord but Himself and His kingdom. That would most definitely confirm to the high priest that Jesus was who He claimed to be. Not one stone of their physical temple would be left on another - judgment to these OT people and the end of that covenant, having been fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus as the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek entered the true sanctuary in heaven to present His sacrifice - Himself - and to confirm to the people that the sacrifice was acceptable the high priest came out of the temple. Jesus came out of the temple in A.D. 70 when He came in judgment of the disobedient and to vindicate the blood of His saints and martyrs. This too can be confirmed with Scripture.

He also told His disciples that some of them would not taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28). We know that Jesus said the same to Peter concerning John in John 21:22.

Hopefully this is connecting some of the dots so that you are starting to see the picture?

I could go on, but I think I have left you with a lot to digest.

Peter

[hippias]

Many thanks, Peter! Some things I do understand better now, yet in some respects I can't see the relevance to my problem:

In Genesis we are told:

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” 9 And God said unto Abraham, “Thou shalt keep My covenant, therefore, thou and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is My covenant which ye shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every manchild among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every manchild in your generations, he that is born in the house or bought with money from any stranger who is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house and he that is bought with thy money must be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised manchild whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.” (17:7-14)

None of your quotes seem to refer specifically to this verse - but I may be wrong. This covenant is termed everlasting. Yet it was changed: E.g. the necessity for circumcision was ruled out. Furthermore God's promise to be Abraham's and his descendants's godhead has turned out to be untrue, because Jews neglect the veracity of the New Testament, so a pious Jew who by definition does not believe in Jesus does not have the same God as Christians do. Therefore the term everlasting is not approbriate.

And what do you mean by that God has fulfilled the Abrahamic covenant? God has promised land which was robbed by the Romans then, with respect to fruitfulness we can be sure to assume that today there are more Jews than around Jesus's times. Only the promise that God will be the Jews's god forever EXPIRED then because of John 14:6.

[Guest]

Always IS Always

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Acts 3:27

~

In Genesis we are told:

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” 9 And God said unto Abraham, “Thou shalt keep My covenant, therefore, thou and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is My covenant which ye shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every manchild among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every manchild in your generations, he that is born in the house or bought with money from any stranger who is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house and he that is bought with thy money must be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised manchild whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.” (Genesis 17:7-14)

None of your quotes seem to refer specifically to this verse - but I may be wrong. This covenant is termed everlasting. Yet it was changed: E.g. the necessity for circumcision was ruled out. Furthermore God's promise to be Abraham's and his descendants's godhead has turned out to be untrue, because Jews neglect the veracity of the New Testament, so a pious Jew who by definition does not believe in Jesus does not have the same God as Christians do. Therefore the term everlasting is not approbriate.

And what do you mean by that God has fulfilled the Abrahamic covenant? God has promised land which was robbed by the Romans then, with respect to fruitfulness we can be sure to assume that today there are more Jews than around Jesus's times. Only the promise that God will be the Jews's god forever EXPIRED then because of John 14:6.

It

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Ain't Over

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

Till It's Over You See

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:17-20

And If You Can't Believe It Beloved, Just Turn On Your TV

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Zechariah 12:1-3

[PGA]

Many thanks, Peter! Some things I do understand better now, yet in some respects I can't see the relevance to my problem:

In Genesis we are told:

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” 9 And God said unto Abraham, “Thou shalt keep My covenant, therefore, thou and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is My covenant which ye shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every manchild among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every manchild in your generations, he that is born in the house or bought with money from any stranger who is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house and he that is bought with thy money must be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised manchild whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.” (17:7-14)

None of your quotes seem to refer specifically to this verse - but I may be wrong. This covenant is termed everlasting. Yet it was changed: E.g. the necessity for circumcision was ruled out. Furthermore God's promise to be Abraham's and his descendants's godhead has turned out to be untrue, because Jews neglect the veracity of the New Testament, so a pious Jew who by definition does not believe in Jesus does not have the same God as Christians do. Therefore the term everlasting is not approbriate.

Hi Hippias,

I don't believe the covenant was changed in that its everlastingness/eternity was also pointing to Jesus Christ, just as the physical circumcision was pointing to a far greater circumcision.

The 'Seed' of verse 7 I believe referred to Christ Jesus (if you notice that Genesis 17:7-14 refers to 'seed' in the singular - Gal. 3:16). We are also told in Galatians 3:7 that those who believe are children of Abraham (also Romans 4:13-17). Finally in Galatians 3:29 Scripture says that if you 'belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise'. In Jesus and in His blood is the everlasting covenant promised to Abraham (2 Cor. 1:20).

Also the circumcision of the flesh, IMO, was type and shadow of the circumcision of the heart, as also expanded upon in the NT.

The law and the Old Covenant, Scripture tells us, came 430 years later than what was promised to Abraham.

I think Galatians chapter 4 explains many of your concerns. Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman, one by the free woman, one born the natural way and the other born of promise, one representative of the old covenant, the other of the new, one representative of the earthly Jerusalem, the other of the heavenly Jerusalem, one representative of a covenant that was conditional on works, one that is a gift of God's grace.

The OT prophecies contain many foreshadows of what was to come, types and shadows of greater realities. This we know because the NT Scriptures speak of such things (1 Cor. 10:1-3; Col. 2:17; Hebrews 8:5; 9:11; 10:11). I see the NT Scriptures are constantly showing the difference between the shadow and the reality that is in Christ. I've been told that 1 Corinthians 10:11 uses the word 'example' in some of our translations which is translated from the Greek word that means typologies.

Concerning these types and shadows, Scripture tells us that the prophets of the OT searched intently into the time and circumstances of these prophecies were pointing:

1 Peter 1:10-12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁰ Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, ¹¹ trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. ¹² It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

So all these prophets that spoke of the grace and salvation to come were pointing to the fulfillment that came to these Christians during the 1st century, in Jesus Christ, IMO.

Peter