MATTHEW 5:48

[franciskelsey]

New International Version (©1984)

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Me and a good brother was talking about the topic of being able to live a perfect Christian life. This has brought me to my knees in prayer, and beyond that, an understanding that I am never as good as I might start to think I am. Thank you Jesus for Your mercy.

I am doing much study as we speak and further input would be awesome. I know we are called to live as Christ, and to be perfect, just as He is perfect. However, we also know our sinful nature never leaves, though with the Spirit we can over come. Does this however mean we can get to a state in our Christian walk where we walk perfectly and have not one sin to confess, or perhaps better put, unknown sins, even if this is concluded in the definition of sin, where all unrighteousness is sin? Who here can say they always have 100% of their heart and mind pointing directly toward God?

Sometimes, it is not until I look in the God mirror where I realize I am not free from all sin and rebellion, though I have no sin that I know of right now that is an ongoing sin in which I am being convicted of. What does the word perfect mean being that scripture is clear that we all are conforming and growing to be more like Christ, or Christ like everyday of our lives and that the blood of Christ was shed not just for our past sins, but present and future sins too.

This topic is kinda laying heavy on my heart to get to a true understanding of it all so any input would be of great help.

I would like to share what I have discovered with the help of the Holy Spirit and through all of you after I am done with all research in relation to this.

I was going to just respond on another thread but could find no others that dealt with the teaching of perfect living.

Forgive me for my long start post. LOL Just so many questions.

God bless

I felt compelled to seek more answers before trying to conclude without full knowledge. Thank you for your help.

Edited January 6, 2013 by franciskelsey

[OneLight]

I won't answer the poll for a few reasons, but that really does not matter. Scripture tells us that we can overcome the world if we have enough faith in Him. Yet, it also tells us that we are in constant battle with our flesh. WE also know that we are all different, even from one minute to the next. We also have to take into consideration how much sin is before our eyes every day, and through our ears also, compared to the times scripture was penned.

Do I think it is possible, perhaps it is if one could meditate completely on Jesus 24/7.

Personally, I see this as a never ending debate.

[chloe_fantastic]

I wouldn't have voted if I'd known I would be the first one.

I voted it depends because in the verse, the word that's translated "perfect" in some translations, is translated "holy" in other translations. While I don't believe we can ever be perfect if the definition is completely without sin from now till death, I do believe we can live holy lives, if the definition is sincerely desiring to please God, even if we fail at times.

[He giveth more grace]

Another option I would have included is, 'It depends on how the word 'perfect' is used.and what is the definition.

Merriam-Webster

a : being entirely without fault or defect

It's too late in the night to run references, so I won't. Nevertheless, I believe the word could have the meaning of being mature, or complete, lacking nothing, I am persuaded that Jesus is the only perfect man. Our bodies are not redeemed now, we try to keep our bodies under us and we override the body with our spirit, but at the end of the day it is still corrupt.

Positionally, we are perfect, complete in him.

Colossians 2:9-10a

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him

[Guest]

New International Version (©1984)

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Me and a good brother was talking about the topic of being able to live a perfect Christian life. This has brought me to my knees in prayer, and beyond that, an understanding that I am never as good as I might start to think I am. Thank you Jesus for Your mercy.

Amen And Amen~!

~

No No No

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

Never In My Righteousness

Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers: Job 8:20

Will I Make Myself Perfect In The Eyes Of The LORD

For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 1 Peter 3:12

But

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:21-28

Jesus~!

[allofgrace]

Yes, with an emphasis on it being by faith in the righteousness of Christ on which I stand. I do not believe in the sinless walk by the actions of a believer. The believer is perfect in Christ. 2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. So in our position and trust in Christ, we are perfect, but in our walk it is a growing process. Maturity comes into focus as we put off the deeds of the flesh by following the Holy Spirit's leading as Paul says in this Phil 3 passage; Phil 3:12-16 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. John puts it this way in 1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. And as I stated, faith plays an important part always in the life of a believer, those that fear dropping away or losing their salvation have a fear that is not necessary for the saint. 1 John 4!7-19 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. The more our faith in Christ becomes a reality, fear vanishes. This perfect here I believe is more complete in love, we are already perfect in every way in Christ and that is why we must please toward the mark of being holy in our walk and that will be accomplished in glory.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i voted it depends. i'll explain why i believe it depends on our interpretation of "holy".

for me, the answer lies within mystery of the construction of the tabernacle as it was given to Moses by revelation.

i believe it follows the same pattern of heaven where the Holy Father abides in Glory.

the tabernacle was divided into 3 sections, by veils or curtains:

The Outer Court

The Holy Place (or The Inner Court)

The Holy of Holies

the entrance to the Outer Court points to Jesus Christ, all other approaches to God are blocked but one. by His blood.

the Outer Court represents redemption and repentance. Jesus Christ is accepted as Lord and Saviour, and the baptism by water may take place.

to pass through the Outer Court, is to get past what the flesh wants and mind thinks.

and so the Outer Court can in a way represent the flesh.

when one resides in the Outer Court, there is a veil over one's spiritual eyes that impedes clear understanding of the deeper blessings/revelations of God.

it's possible that one wrestles with the attitudes of, "why do people fanatically praise God, or lift their hands in worship? why do people still speak in tongues?" etc..the importance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is devalued, or denied etc..

all of which are of course up for debate among believers, and a critical phase of our growth in knowledge and wisdom..imo.

but to remain in the Outer Court, is akin to idleness.

for in order to pass through the other veils or curtains of the tabernacle, one must separate the spiritual man/woman from the carnal man/woman..

in order to receive everything God has for us, our minds must be renewed, transformed to the mind of Christ..

-------

once past the veil into the Inner Court, one can see the golden candlestick, the table of showbread, and the golden altar of incense.

the Outer Court is illumined by natural sunlight.

the Inner Court is illumined by the pure righteousness of the light Jesus Christ Himself, which is represented by the golden candlestick, or Manora.

the showbread is the manna of God or His Holy Word. our souls are illuminated by the light of Jesus Christ and by feasting on His Word.

praise, worship, fasting and heart-felt prayer are among the sacrifices presented at the golden altar.

by the grace of God, the Inner Court is where we learn to deal with our flesh through sanctification.

through the Inner Court of the Holiness of God, we are set apart, sanctified through and through.

-------

not of our own doing, but the strongest veil to pierce through is that which guards the Holy of Holies.

here, the full baptism of the Holy Spirit is received.

by the grace of God, one is then given the gift of discerning the deeper blessings/revelations of God. one is then truly anointed and can learn all things.

the only light in the Holy of Holies was the light of the presence and the Glory of God Himself.

the breath of God was in this place, thus the Holy Spirit was the breath of the Holy of Holies.

on the day of atonement when the High Priest would come to sprinkle blood 7 times on the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant, he would instantly meet death if he was found with sin in his life.

why? because God is Holy, sin is unrighteousness/darkness, and darkness cannot abide among pure righteousness/light.

-------

the tabernacle analogy is so amazing, we could go on and on..

forgive me if my "why" is so drawn out, but trust i am getting to my point!

when Jesus Christ voluntarily went to crucifixion, the veil was torn!

through His precious blood every believer is granted an audience, and may come Boldly to God's Mighty Throne of Grace.

a High Priest is no longer needed for atonement, because JESUS CHRIST is our SINLESS HIGH PRIEST who Himself is the atonement for the TOTALITY of SIN.

so Yes, we are HOLY and PERFECT through His sacrifice.

we are the temple that carries the Holy Spirit of GOD.

we strive to maintain the temple Cleansed and Sanctified through the help of the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

and so i believe the central desire of our hearts should be to be Completely Transformed by the GLORY and POWER of GOD.

but the bible says there is a secret place.

i believe this secret place is beyond the Holy of Holies.

Psalm 91

91 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

² I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

³ Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

⁴ He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

⁵ Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

⁶ Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

⁷ A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

⁸ Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

⁹ Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

¹⁰ There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

¹¹ For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

¹² They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

¹³ Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

¹⁴ Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

¹⁵ He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

¹⁶ With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

i believe we can be transformed to such a degree of righteousness, that we can abide in a place with the Lord where the enemy simply cannot touch us, physically or spiritually.

in the Holy of Holies, yes we are in the presence of God, but in the secret place..one is in the literal SHADE of the HOLY CREATOR of the UNIVERSE.

Psalm 91 shows us 4 names of God:

The Most High - The Elevated One or The LORD Most High..

Almighty or EL SHADDAI - The One who nourishes, All-Sufficient for All Needs..

The LORD or YEHOVA - the sacred name of God.. I AM THAT I AM

my GOD or ELOHIM - SUPREME RULER or ETERNAL CREATOR or THE PRESERVER MIGHTY and STRONG

----

dwelling in the secret place, one is given victory in all battle.

dwelling in the secret place, through the grace and might of God, one is truly an over-comer.

can we lead a perfect, holy, sinless life as a Christian? No.

but then, we are already made perfect, holy, and sinless by our Lord Jesus Christ

can we be transformed from glory to glory from the natural man to a supernatural man? i believe yes..

is there a secret place? protection, peace, and freedom from worry are promised to those who unconditionally trust in the LORD.

God's Word cannot lie.

faith can move mountains.

love to you Frank, and God bless.

[franciskelsey]

I won't answer the poll for a few reasons, but that really does not matter. Scripture tells us that we can overcome the world if we have enough faith in Him. Yet, it also tells us that we are in constant battle with our flesh. WE also know that we are all different, even from one minute to the next. We also have to take into consideration how much sin is before our eyes every day, and through our ears also, compared to the times scripture was penned.

Do I think it is possible, perhaps it is if one could meditate completely on Jesus 24/7.

Personally, I see this as a never ending debate.

A couple good points you brought up. One -- we are all different. Could it not be, due to being different with different interest, and this is not even to get into different levels of growth but just every one being made different, that if there were to people that considered themselves perfect, they would never consider the other perfect?

Concerning the times, however, Lot, Noah, Paul and many many more knew what living holy in the midst of sin was all about so I guess in my own prospective I could not use that as a reason for sin.

You are most likely right in regards to this topic, like many others, could go on forever, but hopefully, for those with listening ears and an open heart, some conclusions can be made. I feel it is important to try to fully understand as much as possible as so we can answer when needed and be a help to our brethren and sisters when needed.

I wouldn't have voted if I'd known I would be the first one.

I voted it depends because in the verse, the word that's translated "perfect" in some translations, is translated "holy" in other translations. While I don't believe we can ever be perfect if the definition is completely without sin from now till death, I do believe we can live holy lives, if the definition is sincerely desiring to please God, even if we fail at times.

Yes, there seems to be many translations and we find that with every Hebrew and Greek word in translation. One thing God seemed to lay on my heart last night, and I will use scripture later on, as the focus of the heart. Davis was said to obey all of Gods commandments, yet he was a murderer, a cheater, and a liar, at least om one or two occasions, but interesting enough, when he lied to the priest to get food for his men it was never counted against him, though the priest entire family was put to death. Also interesting he is still said to have obeyed all of Gods commands. The thing that struck me was this.

It is said that David had a heart for God. How wonderful! Is this where the truth lays? The heart? Many others were called perfect, righteous or holy though they had committed sin clearly stated in the bible. Even Peter. Even Paul writes his struggles in Romans 7. But all of these men (and woman) had one thing in common. Their heart, and their desire to worship and to please God Almighty.

Point being, perhaps you nailed the answer pretty good.

Another option I would have included is, 'It depends on how the word 'perfect' is used.and what is the definition.

Merriam-Webster

a : being entirely without fault or defect

It's too late in the night to run references, so I won't. Nevertheless, I believe the word could have the meaning of being mature, or complete, lacking nothing, I am persuaded that Jesus is the only perfect man. Our bodies are not redeemed now, we try to keep our bodies under us and we override the body with our spirit, but at the end of the day it is still corrupt.

Positionally, we are perfect, complete in him.

Colossians 2:9-10a

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him

Some good words there. Mature in Christ. Realizing our sinful nature, thus sin, is not completely done away with. We stand holy before God because of the blood of Jesus but understanding we are yet to be made perfect, when this body is gone. Perhaps a difference would be, justified versing made to perfection, though hopefully all Christians grow into a mature walk with Christ.

New International Version (©1984)

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Me and a good brother was talking about the topic of being able to live a perfect Christian life. This has brought me to my knees in prayer, and beyond that, an understanding that I am never as good as I might start to think I am. Thank you Jesus for Your mercy.

Amen And Amen~!

~

No No No

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

Never In My Righteousness

Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers: Job 8:20

Will I Make Myself Perfect In The Eyes Of The LORD

For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 1 Peter 3:12

But

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:21-28

Jesus~!

Thank you for the scripture. Your answering with the word of God is always inspiring, thoughtful, and often right on.

Yes, with an emphasis on it being by faith in the righteousness of Christ on which I stand. I do not believe in the sinless walk by the actions of a believer. The believer is perfect in Christ. 2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. So in our position and trust in Christ, we are perfect, but in our walk it is a growing process. Maturity comes into focus as we put off the deeds of the flesh by following the Holy Spirit's leading as Paul says in this Phil 3 passage; Phil 3:12-16 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. John puts it this way in 1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. And as I stated, faith plays an important part always in the life of a believer, those that fear dropping away or losing their salvation have a fear that is not necessary for the saint. 1 John 4!7-19 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. The more our faith in Christ becomes a reality, fear vanishes. This perfect here I believe is more complete in love, we are already perfect in every way in Christ and that is why we must please toward the mark of being holy in our walk and that will be accomplished in glory.

Nothing more that I can add to that right now. A growth, a race, a heart ever reaching out for God, a desire to become more and more like Christ. Perfect through Jesus alone, mature through His Spirit.

Thank you all for your responses and wisdom.

[franciskelsey]

Blessed by the best, I think you just may be. I have never heard an answer expressed in that way before, and I have did much research. I'll have to take some time and study that prospective out. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. Truly a interesting topic to research deeper into. Analogies are found through the entire bible, so just maybe you got something real. I will let you know if I have further questions in relation to this aspect when, if they come up.

[franciskelsey]

Be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect.

for the perfecting of the saints.

Why the poll?

Jesus Is Lord.

I never thought there to be any disagreement of much of this kind before but in my studies I have found there are many, many believers who think we can be at a point of perfection, and, or, should be there at the beginning of our walk with Christ. Most are quite sincere in this to say the very least. Because of the sheer numbers of sites out there with the perfection stance, I thought it might be interesting to see how many of this family also believed in that way regarding perfection and the living of.