VII. Legalism - Letter (Quote) from a Pastor

[Qnts2]

1. Dressing up for church services

2. A requirement to attend church services

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

4. Voting Republican

5. Every time they sin, they must repent or lose their salvation (heard this from a sermon by a pastors wife)

6. Obeying the Pastor (touch not Gods annointed, or being unteachable)

7. Tithing or giving

In the OT, there was no requirement to attend weekly services.

The central place of worship in Israel was the Temple. Most people could not travel to the Temple weekly, as it was too far. On certain Holy days, the people were commanded to go up to Jerusalem but his was only a few times a year. The Day of Atonement was not a Holy day which required traveling to Jerusalem. Passover, Shavuot, and Succoth.

During and after the Babylonian captivity, synagogues were setup for teaching those who were scattered in the Diaspora, and Rabbis taught in the synagogues. Neither Rabbis or synagogues are a part of the Mosaic law. So prior to the Babylonian captivity, on the Sabbath, people stayed home and rested.

During Temple times, worship occurred in the Temple daily, and in David's time, 24x7. In Judaism, since the destruction of the Temple, worship occurs in the synagogues daily. Attendance is considered a 'good deed' but non-attendance is not a sin.

So, we turn to the NT where it says 'not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.'

This verse does not mention services on Sunday. It simply says not to forsake meeting together, but to get together and encourage one another.

Should there be assemblies? Yes. Should there be teaching? Yes. If an assembly chooses to gather every Sunday for encouragement and teaching and to discuss things, that is fine. But, in scripture, there is no schedule, or punishment attached to not assembling.

What I have noticed is the failure to attend a church or regular services is considered by many a sin.

I have also noticed that those who fail to join a church or attend regular services are considered back slidden.

Some church people tend to shun those who have stopped regular attendance.

Of those who are taught it is a sin to miss services, they feel guilty and condemned for not going to services.

[Qnts2]

I don't want to get into the argument concerning these things, as there is a lot of disagreement. I actually tried to avoid the more contentious issues.

1. Dressing up for church services

2. A requirement to attend church services

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

4. Voting Republican

5. Every time they sin, they must repent or lose their salvation (heard this from a sermon by a pastors wife)

6. Obeying the Pastor (touch not Gods annointed, or being unteachable)

7. Tithing or giving

Let's take number 7. I included both Tithing and giving as I believe all Christians would agree with either Tithing or giving, one or the other or both.

What makes it a Christian law? The way it is presented, if a person is not doing it sufficiently.

a. you are cheating God

b. you will not receive blessings

c. you might be sick or insufficient funds or other negative issues due to the failure

d. you can not be a member of the church unless you tithe/give.

That makes tithing/giving a law, with punishment for not complying. Since the law and the related 'punishments' are not part of the Mosaic law, that makes them a Christian law.

If you would like to discuss number 5, that should be in another thread, and I would be happy to express why I see an issue, but as a newbie, I am limited on certain things.

I didn't ask because I wanted to get in an argument, just for clarification as to the intent of the list. As for being a "newbie" and 17 posts, you should not be limited.

Number 3 I have never, ever heard of. Number 4 is dicey. I don't think most Christians say you have to vote Republican, but it is unwise to vote any way but conservative because liberal "values" and Christianity are 100% incompatible. You can't vote for any candidate, as a Christian, who supports sin. And the majority of liberals support either abortion or homosexuality, or both, so a Christian can't vote for them.

For voting Republican, I have heard in many different places that failing to vote, is like a vote for the other side. The assumption was that all Christians vote Republican.

I have heard people say, it is a sin to not vote.

I have heard people say, to vote Democrat or anything other then Republican is a sin.

I have heard people say, they question someones salvation if they do not vote conservative or Republican.

This also ties in with Dominion Theology, where failure to vote is essentially failing to obey Jesus.

Just for consideration, in certain cultures in the U.S., among Christians in those cultures, they vote Democrat. Democrats are viewed as more supportive of welfare, medicaid, medicare, etc. In their view, caring for the poor, widows etc, requires a Democratic vote. Republicans favor the rich to them, which is a sin.

I tie Christian legalism to the perceived consequences of not being obedient.

For 'pot blessing' vs pot luck. In Christianity, there is a language which I call Christianese. People fellowship rather then just chat or get together for a party. There are a whole series of words which are not used or substituted with other words. Every culture has unique words within that culture. Including Christianity. Those coming in from outside of Christianity, do not know the language.

[Qnts2]

And none of them are are salvation issues. It is unwise to not vote, and it is extremely unwise to vote for a candidate who supports sin. There will be a cost to pay for it, both here, spiritually, and on the other side. Not a loss of one's salvation, but rewards will get pulled, without a doubt over that issue. Many haven't thought that part through, or how they will explain to Jesus why they did so, when they should have known better.

Which would be a mistake, because taking money from people who work, in the form of taxes, and giving it to those who refuse to work is theft and it is extremely poor stewardship of the money raised. The people doing so are supporting forced socialism.

I know what a pot luck is. I had never heard it called a pot blessing.

I didn't mean to imply you did not know what a pot luck is. I know of Christians who won't call it a pot luck, and instead call it a pot blessing. I actually know more Christians who use the term pot blessing. Maybe it is regional.

Where I live, the majority are liberal.

A while back, a person ran for a seat in the House. They were a fiscal conservative, running for the Republican nomination on the issues of tax reform, anti-gun control, anti-abortion. The only catch was the persons name was Karen, and used to be Charles. They had a sex change operation. 100% conservative while their opponent was extremely liberal in every issue except they opposed gun control.

So, which do you think was the person to vote for?

[nebula]

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

Number 3 I have never, ever heard of.

I have!

"Luck is demonic!" <<-- the line of thinking/reasoning

I've belonged to groups that would say "pot faith" or "pot blessing" because "luck" is considered ungodly.

[nebula]

A while back, a person ran for a seat in the House. They were a fiscal conservative, running for the Republican nomination on the issues of tax reform, anti-gun control, anti-abortion. The only catch was the persons name was Karen, and used to be Charles. They had a sex change operation. 100% conservative while their opponent was extremely liberal in every issue except they opposed gun control.

So, which do you think was the person to vote for?

Errrr....

[JeannieC]

Letter (quote) from a pastor:

Over the last couple of years, we have really been struggling with the preaching in our church as it has been very law laden and moralistic. After listening, I feel condemned with no power to overcome my lack of ability to obey. Over the last several months, I have found myself very spiritually depressed, to the point where I had no desire to even attend church. Pastors are so concerned about somehow preaching “too much grace” (as if that is possible) because they wrongly believe that type of preaching leads to antinomianism or licentiousness. But, I can testify that the opposite is actually true. I believe preaching only the law, and giving little to no gospel, actually leads to lawless living. When mainly law is preached, it leads to the realization that I can’t follow it, so I might as well quit trying. At least, that’s what has happened to me.

So sad. And frustrating. The ironic thing about legalism is that it not only doesn’t make people work harder, it makes them give up. Moralism doesn’t produce morality; rather, it produces immorality. The Onion brilliantly parodied this dynamic with its article, “Where Are All These ‘Loose Women’ My Pastor Keeps Warning Me About?” in which a fictional 17 year-old kid laments that he never seems to run into any of the promiscuous ladies that he hears about at church so often. The humor is based in reality. It is no coincidence, for example, that the straight-laced Leave It to Beaver generation preceded the ‘free love’ movement of the 1960s. We live in a country where the state most known for its wholesomeness and frugality, Utah, also leads the country in rates of pornography consumption and antidepressant prescriptions.

We make a big mistake when we conclude that the law is the answer to bad behavior. In fact, the law alone stirs up more of such behavior. People get worse, not better, when you lay down the law. To be sure, the Spirit does use both God’s law and God’s gospel in our sanctification. But the law and the gospel do very different things. The law reveals sin but is powerless to remove it. It points to righteousness but can’t produce it. It shows us what godliness is, but it cannot make us godly. As Martin Luther said, “Sin is not canceled by lawful living, for no person is able to live up to the Law. Nothing can take away sin except the grace of God.” The law apart from the gospel can only crush; it cannot cure." -Tullian Tchividjian

Is this off? Or is this right on target? What do you think?

God bless,

GE

I have a thought to offer. I think sometimes people can feel the way the author describes if they don't understand or are unable to accept God's grace. I'll share my experience as an example. I have felt that struggle and spiritual depression before when I didn't understand grace. The church I attended did preach law but I don't think it was the preaching of the law that made me feel that way as much as it was that I couldn't accept that God would love me enough to save me without me having to work for it and earn it. I had also attended churches that preached grace but I was damaged and couldn't understand God's grace. The result is that I was trying to live a new life and conform to the image of Jesus under my own power. I didn't do things out of love, I did things out of fear. I didn't understand love so I would try to put on the new self and live a life pleasing to God but would fail and feel condemned and it was a vicious cycle. I think it was my lack of love and understanding of grace that made my attempts legalism. I fell away and it took time for me to heal and learn how to love and trust God and really understand grace. Now that I do understand and accept God's grace, I am changing. The Holy Spirit is helping me to work out my salvation with fear and trembling and God is at work in me to will and todo His good pleasure. (Phil 2:12-13) That was my thought of when I read the OP. I hope that makes sense.

[Guest]

Thou Shalt Tithe What Money Ye Have And Knock It Off With All Those Turnips And Cows

Thou Shalt Not Question Your Pastor Nor Wilt Thou Raise Your Eyes To The Elders

Thou Shalt Read The Bible Version I Show You Or Ye Art A Big Fat Harry Tick

Thou Shalt Not Associate With Sinners, Family And Friends Too

Thou Shalt Not Sing Hippie Songs To Jesus

Thou Shalt Not Wear Short Sleeves

Thou Shalt Not Cut Ye Hair

Thou Shalt Cut Ye Hair

Woman Must Never Speak

Nor Shalt They Wear Paints

Thou Shalt Never Dance Or Look Up

Thou Shalt Never Go To Movies Or Sing Radio Songs

Woman Are Never Allowed To Ride Nor Shall They Rope-A-Dope

And Only The Very Few Men I Approve Of Can Be Heard Amongst My Peoples

And Ye Shalt Always Vote The Ticket That I In My Wisdom Deem Both Godly And Proper

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mark 7:13

~

I agree with him. When I hear the law preached here on Worthy, or anywhere else, I can feel, I mean literally feel, the constriction and darkness around me. I feel a heavy weight and a real pity for the person who has made their yoke so heavy and who has blinded themselves to the truth.

Such people need our prayer, prayer that one day they will see the light, for only Jesus can free them.

So when someone preaches that we need to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body, and our neighbor as ourselves you feel constricted by darkness around you? That some heavy weight is on you and therefore you pity such a one who preaches this? Just seeking to clarify what you mean when you speak this way. Or are you speaking to the effect of those who preach Sabbath keeping along with following dietary requirements and other burdensome restrictions within the law?

Why Love

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 1:19

Why

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Indeed

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

[Guest]

3. Saying pot blessing rather then pot luck

Number 3 I have never, ever heard of.

I have!

"Luck is demonic!" <<-- the line of thinking/reasoning

I've belonged to groups that would say "pot faith" or "pot blessing" because "luck" is considered ungodly.

Believer's

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

Luck

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Is The Joy Of His Salvation

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. James 1:2-4

CHA-CHING, CHA-CHING~!

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:19-21

Oh How I Love Jesus

[nebula]

Then I started to suspect that maybe legalists underestimate the power and interference level of the Holy Spirit.

Bingo!