Who do you think the woman is in Revelation 12?

[missmuffet]

I think I'm beginning to understand why we have so many different denominations...

I am not into denominations.I am a Christian.....period.

[goldust59]

The woman represents the messianic people since in Revelation there is a constant fusion of Israel and the Church. She is clothed in glory because she is already triumphant and is pregnant with life, albeit an endangered life. We have here the definitive conflict between life and death, between the woman and the dragon, between the Church and the empire. The birth pangs are the pains of the victims who by their death are born into life (12:11). The woman flees to the desert (as opposed to the city, the system), traditionally a place for refugees and those persecuted, but also the place where one experiences God's protection.

Hmm, Will have to look at it again with these thoughts in mind-- thanks Babbler.

After thinking on this-- I will stay with what I think I have seen & continue my studies there.

[xero]

Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

Galatians 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Ephesians 5:29 "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Matthew 12:50 "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Genesis 37:9 "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? 11And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying."

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Galatians 4:22 "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

[goldust59]

Galatians 4:25 "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Getting back to the woman though, do you see the significance of the 12 stars, representative of the 12 tribes? What would that equate to as far as the church?

Thanks Wingnut for adding to the discussion. If I were to advocate for the "woman is the church" position, I would probably suggest that perhaps the 12 apostles, as representatives of the church. If fact, if there were not 12 tribes, I would probably go there, if for know other reason it is one of the 12s in the Bible that jumps into my head. However, the 12 tribes, though it occurred to me, did not strike me as powerful enough that I wanted to include it in my 'argument'. However, it does seem a more natural fit that the 12 apostles. Perhaps someone else might have another option for what that 12 might represent.

Gary, thanks for the 'reassessment' of me, although I did not feel in any way attacked or belittled, I still appreciate that you took the time to inform me, that you did come to some kind of wrong conclusion about me or what I said. Not everyone here bothers to do that.

Our thoughts come from two places and you can tell where they come from by where they lead us too but in some cases it isn't always apparent. Multiple views expressed over a single passage can lead to confusion so we know who is the author of that.

I was offered in thought that the word constellations, which are groupings of stars, is not found in scripture. There are 12 constellations in all that make up the course that the sun travels through throughout the year. The King of these twelve groups of stars is Leo the Lion who is at the head of Virgo the Virgin and Leo then could be considered the 'crown' of the twelve. Take it for what it is worth. The idea that a group of celestial bodies can be referred too as a star but be meaning constellation makes more sense to me especially since I cannot find any use of the term constellation in ancient Greek. The purpose proposed for naming the crown of twelve stars at the head is simply to more accurately define who the Virgin is that is in question if this be the case.

No dogma here. Can't say I have any of it 'nailed' down for certain. What I seek to consider is what impact do the thoughts I am being offered have upon my actions? What is it that I will do considering what I have believed? All of the talk about the stellar alignment on October 16th, 2012 combined with all of the other thoughts that point to signs of the end of the age has caused me to ask "What should I be doing?" and in turn answered by Hebrews 10, provoking others unto love and good works, though increasing the frequency of our meetings. For this cause, I have to go as I have an assembly this evening for that very purpose. Peace in Christ.

Gary, I think the constellation Virgo is one of the things represented by the woman too. I just think this passage of scripture about her has layers of meaning & not just one. It does seem to be the constellation that was visible at the time of Jesus' birth and I believe it being seen again, with similar alignment of stars or planets with it, signals the time of the "manifestation/revealing of the sons of God" of Romans 8:19.

natural-- Mary & birth of Jesus

spiritual-- His church & birth of His son(though we be many)

[back2thebible]

The book of Revelation was written specifically to the bond-servants of Jesus Christ (1:1)--Christian believers. I think she is the church.

actually the letters to the churches are addressed to the angels over the churches, as they are written to both the church and to the angels over the church

[Jonah'sJourney]

The book itself, however, is for the benefit of believers (1:1; 22:16), not angels.

[gdemoss]

Galatians 4:25 "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Getting back to the woman though, do you see the significance of the 12 stars, representative of the 12 tribes? What would that equate to as far as the church?

Thanks Wingnut for adding to the discussion. If I were to advocate for the "woman is the church" position, I would probably suggest that perhaps the 12 apostles, as representatives of the church. If fact, if there were not 12 tribes, I would probably go there, if for know other reason it is one of the 12s in the Bible that jumps into my head. However, the 12 tribes, though it occurred to me, did not strike me as powerful enough that I wanted to include it in my 'argument'. However, it does seem a more natural fit that the 12 apostles. Perhaps someone else might have another option for what that 12 might represent.

Gary, thanks for the 'reassessment' of me, although I did not feel in any way attacked or belittled, I still appreciate that you took the time to inform me, that you did come to some kind of wrong conclusion about me or what I said. Not everyone here bothers to do that.

Our thoughts come from two places and you can tell where they come from by where they lead us too but in some cases it isn't always apparent. Multiple views expressed over a single passage can lead to confusion so we know who is the author of that.

I was offered in thought that the word constellations, which are groupings of stars, is not found in scripture. There are 12 constellations in all that make up the course that the sun travels through throughout the year. The King of these twelve groups of stars is Leo the Lion who is at the head of Virgo the Virgin and Leo then could be considered the 'crown' of the twelve. Take it for what it is worth. The idea that a group of celestial bodies can be referred too as a star but be meaning constellation makes more sense to me especially since I cannot find any use of the term constellation in ancient Greek. The purpose proposed for naming the crown of twelve stars at the head is simply to more accurately define who the Virgin is that is in question if this be the case.

No dogma here. Can't say I have any of it 'nailed' down for certain. What I seek to consider is what impact do the thoughts I am being offered have upon my actions? What is it that I will do considering what I have believed? All of the talk about the stellar alignment on October 16th, 2012 combined with all of the other thoughts that point to signs of the end of the age has caused me to ask "What should I be doing?" and in turn answered by Hebrews 10, provoking others unto love and good works, though increasing the frequency of our meetings. For this cause, I have to go as I have an assembly this evening for that very purpose. Peace in Christ.

Gary, I think the constellation Virgo is one of the things represented by the woman too. I just think this passage of scripture about her has layers of meaning & not just one. It does seem to be the constellation that was visible at the time of Jesus' birth and I believe it being seen again, with similar alignment of stars or planets with it, signals the time of the "manifestation/revealing of the sons of God" of Romans 8:19.

natural-- Mary & birth of Jesus

spiritual-- His church & birth of His son(though we be many)

Thanks for the fodder.

[xero]

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

[Guest]

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; ² and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.⁴ And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

⁵ And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to ^[a]rule all the ^[b]nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.⁶ Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there ^[c]she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Let's see, she gives birth to a male child. Jesus is a male Child.

He is to rule the nations.

From Psalm 2:

4He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.

5Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

8Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the [very] ends of the earth as Your possession.

9You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"

There we see God's Son, Jesus, will rule the nations coincidentally, also with a rod of iron.

The child is caught up to God

Acts 1

1The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2until the day when He was taken up to heaven,

9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

Jesus was caught up to Heaven.

The child will be at God's throne

Psa 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord:

“Sit at My right hand

Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Matt 25:31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne

Jesus is at the throne.

The 1260 days is a little more troublesome. Do a search for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, or forty two months, or time times and half a time, or three and a half years, and you will find many references in the bible. It is the length of the great tribulation the second half of Daniels 70th week. Some note that the time is also predicted by Jesus, when He told them to flee Jerusalem (Luke 21:20). Commentators differ on whether those nourised by God, is Israel, the Church. However, in the context in Rev 12, it seems likely that Israel is indicated, becuase the woman gave birth the the Son. The Church did not give birth to the Son, Israel did.

If you want to say that the Church is spiritual Israel, or true Israel, or the Israel of God, fine, I won't argue with that, but it was bloodline Israel, that produced the Messiah.

So, after all of those points of agreement listed above, I believe the woman is Israel. And it would be hard to convince me that any other person or entity, can match all those features above.

oh yeah, and another reference to ruling with a rod of iron:

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19

[RedMomma]

I would have to agree with Omie here the scriptures he posts makes perfect sense I used to think that the woman was a metaphor but now Im not thinking so