What to expect next.

[JohnS]

Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21 all give Christ's warning least we be deceived as to His ACTUAL (vs. false) second advent.

2 Cor 11:12-15

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming (more accurately "disguising" ) themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed (disguised) into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (disguised) as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

(KJV)

very few of us have been vouched that the gathering is at the seventh trump and not the sixth. do you know how many of our brothers and sisters are being taught the "at any minute" doctrine of the Lord's return ? how many "revrends" are fleecing the sheep with the "left behind at any minute" fairy tale$ ?

( Ps 111:9-10

9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: Holy and Reverend is His Name.

10 The fear ("reverence" more aptly translated ) of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do His commandments: His praise endureth for ever. )

anyhow might the "Keys of David" be the chronology of Psalms 22,23 and 24 ? that is, the death, ressurection and final return in Glory of our Precious Lord ?

how churlish is the usage of the false "any minute" doctrine as a scare tactic and blessed is the teaching of of the pure doctrine of The Word ?

agape,

phil

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John, the above is my reason of why I despise the study of eschatology. Here we have someone so concerned about when Christ is comming back that they're missing the entire point.

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In the Old Testament 17 of 39 books are prophetic, not to speak of numerous prophecies contained in the writings of Moses and the Psalms. In the New Testament entire chapters of the Gospels, many passages of the Epistles, and the entire Apocalypse are equally dedicated to prophecy. Paul said,"Every scripture is God-inspired and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work."

By the way, what's "churlish"?

[apothanein kerdos]

Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21 all give Christ's warning least we be deceived as to His ACTUAL (vs. false) second advent.

2 Cor 11:12-15

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming (more accurately "disguising" ) themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed (disguised) into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (disguised) as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

(KJV)

very few of us have been vouched that the gathering is at the seventh trump and not the sixth. do you know how many of our brothers and sisters are being taught the "at any minute" doctrine of the Lord's return ? how many "revrends" are fleecing the sheep with the "left behind at any minute" fairy tale$ ?

( Ps 111:9-10

9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: Holy and Reverend is His Name.

10 The fear ("reverence" more aptly translated ) of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do His commandments: His praise endureth for ever. )

anyhow might the "Keys of David" be the chronology of Psalms 22,23 and 24 ? that is, the death, ressurection and final return in Glory of our Precious Lord ?

how churlish is the usage of the false "any minute" doctrine as a scare tactic and blessed is the teaching of of the pure doctrine of The Word ?

agape,

phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, the above is my reason of why I despise the study of eschatology. Here we have someone so concerned about when Christ is comming back that they're missing the entire point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the Old Testament 17 of 39 books are prophetic, not to speak of numerous prophecies contained in the writings of Moses and the Psalms. In the New Testament entire chapters of the Gospels, many passages of the Epistles, and the entire Apocalypse are equally dedicated to prophecy. Paul said,"Every scripture is God-inspired and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work."

By the way, what's "churlish"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of those prophecies in the Old Testament have already been fufilled. In the New Testament there is only one prophetic book and about 8 or 9 chapters that deal with the end times. There are more chapters about God's grace, witnessing, and living the Christian life than there are concerning eschatology. Thus, eschatology, while interesting, is a time suck for more important things.

[JohnS]

Super Jew,

Only the ones who claim to have it all figured out are annoying. The ones who are studying are fine!

horizoneast,

You've changed your story now. I have no trouble understanding, thanks.

The inspired writer proclaims the followers of Christ will ultimately and completely defeat the enemies of God and the Christian religion will triumph in the end.

The book is entitled the Revelation of Jesus Christ and He has already won the victory.

Heavenly armies who also are mounted follow the conquering Christ on there own white horses. They are clothed in fine linen, pure and white. Who is this heavenly army? It consists of the redeemed, which, by their obedience, have washed their robes in the Lamb

[Guest philws]

Super,

as i am still amongst those who are in this world you may address me directly; albeit you are attempting to discredit me with a deliberate(?) distortion of our(?) Father's Word.

What part of:

Matt 24:33-42

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.(KJV)

do you think i do not understand ?

if the study (or students) of eschatology are a "bother" to you perhaps you could edify us as to how you can equate the blood of a red heifer with that of Yashua Moshiach ?

tell us my learned friend, why the parable of the figtree is the ONLY parable that The Lord directly commands us to learn ? Which basket are you teaching from ? why is "Revelation" called revelation and not "optional study for extra credit"?

Shalom

moshe ephraim ><>

ps. "churlish"

from Brown-Driver Hebrew Lexicon

3596 kiylay or kelay-

a scoundrel, a knave

Edited November 10, 2004 by philws

[apothanein kerdos]

Only the ones who claim to have it all figured out are annoying. The ones who are studying are fine!

I hope I do not come across as condemning those who study eschatology. What I am questioning is those who dedicate the majority of their biblical studies to it and those who seem to think that it's actually an important issue to get heated over. Nothing wrong with studying it, learning it, taking a class on it, and discussing it. Yet, what irks me is that it seems to predominate a lot of Christian discussions when in the vast reality of our current situation it doesn't matter.

as i am still amongst those who are in this world you may address me directly; albeit you are attempting to discredit me with a deliberate(?) distortion of our(?) Father's Word.

Phil, this is the first time I really even remember responding to you. If you took something that I said as personal then I ask that you don't. I am responding to those who fall into the category of elevated eschatology. Tim Lahey falls into this category as well. People who spend the majority of their time studying about the end times are really wasting their time. If that's you, then I offer no apology for what I believe, just that you don't take it personally.

if the study (or students) of eschatology are a "bother" to you perhaps you could edify us as to how you can equate the blood of a red heifer with that of Yashua Moshiach ?

There is a difference between the study of eschatology and being a student of eschatology. Likewise, there is a difference between those who study prophecy and those who study eschatology. My main beef is that so many Christians keep their heads tilted up towards the sky awaiting Jesus's return that they forget to look around them and see their fellow man going to hell. While we can gain some amazing statutes about God's character through the study of eschatology, we should not become so engulfed in it that it is the majority of our study.

tell us my learned friend, why the parable of the figtree is the ONLY parable that The Lord directly commands us to learn ? Which basket are you teaching from ? why is "Revelation" called revelation and not "optional study for extra credit"?

Well it's called Revelation because that's what it is, a revelation from God to man. It is God revealing the future to John. I never advocated we should not study (though I did word it poorly), I simply believe it should not consume our studies or hold a spot within our essential beliefs. In fact, the end times shouldn't even come up in a conversation with a lost person unless they ask about it. It would honestly be hypocritical to say that any and all study of eschatology is wrong, however I think I stand on Biblical ground to assert that having it as a main course of study is wrong and defeating to the Christian purpose.

[oliveoil]

I have my tv on msnbc right now and their topic is peace, ever since Arafat died this is all they talk about. So don't tell me this is not a sign of the times we are living in. This road map is on everyones lips. As far as prophecy is concerned I have tried to get away from it many times since I've been saved but God draws me back. The church has the 5 fold min, the prophet is one of them listed if it was not considered to be important then why give it the status it has in the Bible. Never once did the lord say nay forget prophecy its a dead issue. No instead we are told to watch, to pray, to be on the lookout for the signs. He even went so far as saying if we don't watch he would come on us as a thief in the night. Rev 3:3 For those of you who don't think it necessary to watch then don't. Go about your daily lives like you choose. I for one don't want him coming upon me like a thief I want to be ready and watching.

[apothanein kerdos]

I have my tv on msnbc right now and their topic is peace, ever since Arafat died this is all they talk about. So don't tell me this is not a sign of the times we are living in.

People said the same thing after Pentecost as well. Likewise in 1948 when Israel became a nation people believed it. Of course people have been saying "we are towards the end) ever since Christ went back up into heaven. Just because an old Arab man died who was influential doesn't mean that Christ will come back in our lifetime.

This road map is on everyones lips. As far as prophecy is concerned I have tried to get away from it many times since I've been saved but God draws me back. The church has the 5 fold min, the prophet is one of them listed if it was not considered to be important then why give it the status it has in the Bible.

Because the gift of prophecy mentioned in the bible is boldness to declare the Will of God. The purpose of prophecy in the New Testament church is to declare God's Will, not to predict the future.

Never once did the lord say nay forget prophecy its a dead issue. No instead we are told to watch, to pray, to be on the lookout for the signs. He even went so far as saying if we don't watch he would come on us as a thief in the night. Rev 3:3 For those of you who don't think it necessary to watch then don't. Go about your daily lives like you choose. I for one don't want him coming upon me like a thief I want to be ready and watching.

No, He didn't, but He talked a whole lot more about growing in the wisdom of God and reaching out to the lost than He did about keeping our head in the clouds. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Oh this is interesting" and doing a brief study on it. But to dedicate our lives to it or to let it consume our conversations is absurd.

As for comming like a theif, you missed the point of the parable. JEsus tells us that so we'll do good works regardless. I mean, if Christ comes back and we go, "Oh, aha, I knew it was close" but have nothing to show for it...then what does it matter? Yet if He comes back and we go, "I had no idea you were comming, I didn't think you'd come in my lifetime" but have been doing His work....who do you think has been caught and will be in trouble?

[other one]

1 Corinthians 16:22 "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

The significant part of this statement in relationship to Christ'ts coming is the term "Maranatha," which was one of several "eschatological statements concerning Christ's coming. . .within the framework of early Christian tradition." It was distinctive among these statements because it was an Aramaic expression. It had the form of a petition. The Didache, an ancient Christian manual of worship, used this petition in statements that were to be made at the end of the communion service. This usage helps to clarify the meaning of this expression, especially in light of Paul's reference to the future coming of Christ in conjunction with the observance of communion (1 Cor. 11:26).

I can't for the life of me figure out why a Christian would be upset about another Christian wanting Jesus to return. That and that alone is what is going to set things right.

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Well here is one Christian that "most" of the time wants Him to delay. I have a brother in law that is a non believer and he has corrupted my sister to the point Idon't know if she really believes any longer. I work with several people who are non believers and I personally like for they are decent people. I occasionally put out feelers to see if any are open to the gospel, and maybe in time the Holy Spirit will get through to them.

When Jesus returns these people will all be lost.......... need I say more.

[JohnS]

1 Corinthians 16:22 "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

The significant part of this statement in relationship to Christ'ts coming is the term "Maranatha," which was one of several "eschatological statements concerning Christ's coming. . .within the framework of early Christian tradition." It was distinctive among these statements because it was an Aramaic expression. It had the form of a petition. The Didache, an ancient Christian manual of worship, used this petition in statements that were to be made at the end of the communion service. This usage helps to clarify the meaning of this expression, especially in light of Paul's reference to the future coming of Christ in conjunction with the observance of communion (1 Cor. 11:26).

I can't for the life of me figure out why a Christian would be upset about another Christian wanting Jesus to return. That and that alone is what is going to set things right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well here is one Christian that "most" of the time wants Him to delay. I have a brother in law that is a non believer and he has corrupted my sister to the point Idon't know if she really believes any longer. I work with several people who are non believers and I personally like for they are decent people. I occasionally put out feelers to see if any are open to the gospel, and maybe in time the Holy Spirit will get through to them.

When Jesus returns these people will all be lost.......... need I say more.

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And somehow you think your love for the lost surpasses that of Jesus? And maybe He would return the day before they would have been saved?

[other one]

And somehow you think your love for the lost surpasses that of Jesus? And maybe He would return the day before they would have been saved?

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You could think of it that way, however my love for Him is stable and not new and will last for eternity. I don't think He would appreciate my wanting to be with Him more than the need for some single soul coming to Him.

Fact is he will come when the Father tells him, so my thoughts are not really going to have much of an effect. So we are really just talking about the internal state of mind of each of us. I am stable enough in the Lord that I can wait a little longer for Him to come so as to give as many as possible the chance to come to Him.

If he bothered to come here and die for us, the least we can do is stay here and help others come to Him......