Making Israel jealous

[Qnts2]

I have always wondered about the scripture which says, Gentiles will come to the Messiah, and make Israel jealous.

Romans 10:

¹⁹ But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,

By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

In Hebrew, the word Goy means nation and Goyim is plural and means nations. A nation is a people group (ethnic, race, etc). So what is the nation which is not a nation? It is the Church, an assembly of believers from all different nations to form a new nation with only one thing in common, Jesus/Yeshua.

So this nation which was not a nation, is the assembly of believers. Gentiles who have accepted the Jewish Messiah.

I have wondered that the Christians do not seem to be making Israel jealous. Instead, I have noticed Christians/Gentile believers who instead seem to be jealous of Israel/the Jewish people. I have met Gentile believers who claim to be Jewish, wish they were Jewish, dress up like Jewish people. Along with theologies which seek to find a way for the Church/Gentile believers to be Israel. Replacement theology, and Two House theology.

So, I wondered what is wrong?

Then I read the testimony of a Messianic Jewish Rabbi. He was working alongside a man named Loren, swabbing the deck. It was a boring, menial task but Baruch noticed Loren was always happy. Finally Baruch asked Loren, how he could be so cheerful day after day. Loren replied,"Your Messiah lives in my heart." Baruch responded: "What is my Messiah doing living in your heart? And who is my Messiah, by the way, and what's he doing in your heart, anyway?"

Loren answered and the rest is history.

I see 2 things here which caused Baruch to be jealous.

1. the peace and joy Loren had

2. Loren said 'your Messiah'. These are words in a Jewish context. The Gentile believers have the Jewish Messiah.

Both of these are worth being jealous of for having the Jewish Messiah and His peace is far better then anything else.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Qnts2

[1peterlight]

Amen. Awesome way to see it.

[Shimshon]

Telling someone they have been replaced, their nation is no more, as a people you are no more, and you must forsake all that you are to join all that you are not, will never make anyone jealous. This mindset says; "I have what you had, and you will never again have it because it was given to us". And this is supposed to make Jews jealous?

You have identified correctly, that which makes Jews jealous is realizing what was promised to them is now being shared with others. When Jews see and recognize the God they know and love, living within the Gentiles. When they realize that which was promised to them has ALSO been given to the Gentiles, then they will want it too.

There is no supersession in this. The Gentiles have not replaced Israel, so as to make her jealous. The Gentiles are sharing in the promise given to and made with Israel. This makes them neither Jews, nor Israel. It makes them co-heirs of the promise given Abraham, namely Yeshua and the salvation he offers.

We say; "Hey! you have what I'm supposed to have!" And they say; "Yes!! Will you not receive it as well?!" And we think; "How has God given them what we are supposed to have?" That is 'our' Messiah!? Our savior! Our redeemer! And they say; "Yes!!! Is He not AWESOME!!" He saved us too!!! Have you not received Him yet?!!! And we are jealous for Him, and His promise. We are jealous for Yeshua to come live in us too. Because the promises to Israel are irrevocable! Yeshua will save us too!! He will redeem us too! Knowing God has extended his mercy and love to the Gentilles makes us Jews jealous for Him too.

But to claim the church has replaced Israel in any way will never make a single Jew jealous. Jews just think they're meshuga.

Do you know of any Christians that are not supersessionalist? I wonder how Messianic Judaism can justify being part of the larger body of Christ, when most of this body refuses to acknowledge the identity of Israel? How can MJ dwell within a community that continually states it has replaced and superseded them? How can we stand united within this type of 'jealousy'?

Truthfully, I think it's this very issue that will be the wedge driven between us. Is the church Israel (of God), or is the restoration of Israel as promised through the prophets true? Has God restored Israel in the form of the church? Or will God restore Israel at the fixed time and season set by the Father? I obviously side with the latter.

It's not a case where Jews have to forsake being Jewish. Being 'in' Messiah does not erase ones Jewishness. It does not make Jews jealous for that which is not Jewish. The promise to Abraham was not that Israel would cease to be a physical nation when the Gentile nations recieved the covenant. It was that the physical nation of Israel would share the covenant made through Yeshua.

[Qnts2]

But to claim the church has replaced Israel in any way will never make a single Jew jealous. Jews just think they're meshuga.

Do you know of any Christians that are not supersessionalist? I wonder how Messianic Judaism can justify being part of the larger body of Christ, when most of this body refuses to acknowledge the identity of Israel? How can MJ dwell within a community that continually states it has replaced and superseded them? How can we stand united within this type of 'jealousy'?

Truthfully, I think it's this very issue that will be the wedge driven between us. Is the church Israel (of God), or is the restoration of Israel as promised through the prophets true? Has God restored Israel in the form of the church? Or will God restore Israel at the fixed time and season set by the Father? I obviously side with the latter.

It's not a case where Jews have to forsake being Jewish. Being 'in' Messiah does not erase ones Jewishness. It does not make Jews jealous for that which is not Jewish. The promise to Abraham was not that Israel would cease to be a physical nation when the Gentile nations recieved the covenant. It was that the physical nation of Israel would share the covenant made through Yeshua.

I agree. Replacement theology is viewed by those Jewish people who are aware of it, is crazy. And it is viewed as slightly anti-semitic, as it is a form of replacement theology which has been used to justify anti-semitism by those who hate the Jewish people.

Do I know Christians who do not believe in supersessionism? Yes. Classic dispensationalists do not believe in replacement theology.

God made promises to Israel, and in my view, if a theology teaches those promises to Israel, the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, actually go to the church and not the sons of Israel/Jacob, to the Jewish people, this is a different god because the God of Israel does not lie and will do as He has said.

[Shimshon]

I guess I just didn't realize how much of the church was supersessionist. Having not been raised in the church I usually ignored its structure and theology. But now as a Messianic Jew trying to find my place along side of her, I'm trying to understand who she is. And i'm finding myself running into replacement theology all over the place.

One of the huge reasons I placed faith in Messiah was because I realized/was shown that Israel 'is'. Not was, or isn't now but will be again, but is. God's people live and exist. There 'is' a nation called Israel. It's not just a revision of history, as the arabs would have us believe. My ancestors 'are' real. We are Israel. We exist. And if we exist, then Messiah Yeshua 'is'. As all of scripture points and leads to him.

Now, if this is true, then so are the promises written about in the prophets. Israel will be redeemed, and restored. In fact, every time the prophets speak of Messiah, they also speak of a redeemed and restored Israel. The two are inextricably linked together. Yeshua is the Messiah, Savior, and King 'of Israel', and the world. But most in the church seem to have been taugh different. They speak of a neutered verson of this promise. Yeshua is King of the world. Israel is stripped from the thought process, and removed from the vision. Messiah is seen solely as King of all. Which includes those 'who were' Jews but are now Christians of the church.

I tell you, this is not making me jealous in any way. Except to distance myself completely from this craziness. It's like trying to talk to a drunk about electromagetism in the hopes he will help you design an engergy free motor. Or talking to a Muslim about Messiah. You think your talking on the same page when in fact he's burning the book!! Anywhoo, enough of my yiddish ramblings. Thanks for the conversation.

[joi]

God's people do indeed live and exist, and I think it will not be long before we see God demonstrate His eternal love for them.

It seems that in the world push [against Israel] is coming to shove and God will defend His heritage!

Joel 3:2

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

[Qnts2]

I agree, Israel is. We, (those who are Jewish) are the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and we still exist.

The first time I read the NT, I expected it to be very anti-semitic, because of my experiences with so-called Christians. Instead, I found a book about the Jewish Messiah, written by Jewish people, talking about Jewish things.

But, the other thing I found out, which shocked me, was that the Jewish people, who knew the One True God, had the Tenakh, and knew about a coming Messiah, had missed Him, while the some of the Gentiles had found Him.

So, now it appears things are reversed. The early Jewish believers had to figure out what to do with the Gentiles and found that God determined they were fully and equally included in the Messianic promises as Gentiles. Today it is reversed. Some of the Gentiles have dismissed Israel as a people who sinned their way out of Gods promises, but get to keep the curses. Just as Israel had assumed the Gentiles who wanted the full blessing of God must become ritually circumcised as Jews, some Gentiles think the Jewish people must now join and become like a Gentile because Israel was cut off and replaced by the Church.

Is it disheartening? Yes. But, the Lord prayed that we might be one. And we are one in the Spirit. And there are Christians who understand that God is not finished with Israel.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Qnts2

[Shimshon]

Do I know Christians who do not believe in supersessionism? Yes. Classic dispensationalists do not believe in replacement theology.

You know, I don't think I can come to grips with dispensationalism either though. Isn't this what the pre-trib rapture adherants hold to? That the church gets raptured at the beginning of the tribulation, the dispensation of the gentiles is over, and now comes the 7 yrs of tribulation dispensed upon Israel. After Israel goes through the tribulation, whoever is left gets saved and added to the church as it comes back down. The church is spared the dispensation of wrath. But Israel has to go through it at her determined time. Or dispensation.

I don't think that's making me jealous either, if you know what I mean.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Shimshon

[Qnts2]

Do I know Christians who do not believe in supersessionism? Yes. Classic dispensationalists do not believe in replacement theology.

You know, I don't think I can come to grips with dispensationalism either though. Isn't this what the pre-trib rapture adherants hold to? That the church gets raptured at the beginning of the tribulation, the dispensation of the gentiles is over, and now comes the 7 yrs of tribulation dispensed upon Israel. After Israel goes through the tribulation, whoever is left gets saved and added to the church as it comes back down. The church is spared the dispensation of wrath. But Israel has to go through it at her determined time. Or dispensation.

I don't think that's making me jealous either, if you know what I mean.

I view myself as a modified dispensationalist. I don't think the Great tribulation was meant to make Israel jealous, but to end the judgement, prepare the Jewish people, and reveal the Messiah. I'll have to look and think about it, to see if Israel's jealousy is just in the time of the Gentiles but is to carry forward.

The Tenakh talks of a time of Jacobs trouble. While I'm not crazy about the idea of the tribulation, I do believe it is the time when Gods attention returns solely to just Israel to put an end to the judgement of Israel.

We might disagree on this.

God used the Holy days to lay out His plan, with Passover as the redemption brought by Jesus. And the first fruit wave offering as the resurrection of Jesus. And Shavuot as the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and law written on our heart. When I look at scripture, the actual physical days these occurred, they occurred to the Jewish disciples in Israel. The Gentiles were not yet included but when they were later, they received the benefits of what God had done.

So I think there will be a time when the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

What do I believe dispensationalism missed? Well, the Mosaic covenant was given to Israel for their entire lives and for all generations. So, if a Jewish person is not yet under the New Covenant, they are still under the Mosaic covenant today. I think classic dispie believes that the Mosaic covenant does not apply to anyone in the age of grace. But the Mosaic covenant is still in force for unsaved Israel today. And it is the law which keeps the children of Israel separated from the surrounding nations, and still exist.

So, what do you think?

Edited March 27, 2013 by Qnts2

[nebula]

First I'd like to say - great thread!

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

I think there might be something more to them than this.

As you know (?), the Spring Feasts were prophetic visuals of Jesus' death (Passover) and resurrection (Feast of First Fruits) and of "Pentecost" (Feat of Weeks).

So, might it be possible that the Fall Feasts reflect Messiah's 2nd coming the same way that the Spring Feasts represent His first coming?

Likewise, there is a prophecy about all the nations celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles.