Making Israel jealous

[Shimshon]

Do I know Christians who do not believe in supersessionism? Yes. Classic dispensationalists do not believe in replacement theology.

You know, I don't think I can come to grips with dispensationalism either though. Isn't this what the pre-trib rapture adherants hold to? That the church gets raptured at the beginning of the tribulation, the dispensation of the gentiles is over, and now comes the 7 yrs of tribulation dispensed upon Israel. After Israel goes through the tribulation, whoever is left gets saved and added to the church as it comes back down. The church is spared the dispensation of wrath. But Israel has to go through it at her determined time. Or dispensation.

I don't think that's making me jealous either, if you know what I mean.

I view myself as a modified dispensationalist. I don't think the Great tribulation was meant to make Israel jealous, but to end the judgement, prepare the Jewish people, and reveal the Messiah. I'll have to look and think about it, to see if Israel's jealousy is just in the time of the Gentiles but is to carry forward.

The Tenakh talks of a time of Jacobs trouble. While I'm not crazy about the idea of the tribulation, I do believe it is the time when Gods attention returns solely to just Israel to put an end to the judgement of Israel.

We might disagree on this.

God used the Holy days to lay out His plan, with Passover as the redemption brought by Jesus. And the first fruit wave offering as the resurrection of Jesus. And Shavuot as the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and law written on our heart. When I look at scripture, the actual physical days these occurred, they occurred to the Jewish disciples in Israel. The Gentiles were not yet included but when they were later, they received the benefits of what God had done.

So I think there will be a time when the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

hmm. Interesting. I think we agree on much.

What do I believe dispensationalism missed? Well, the Mosaic covenant was given to Israel for their entire lives and for all generations. So, if a Jewish person is not yet under the New Covenant, they are still under the Mosaic covenant today. I think classic dispie believes that the Mosaic covenant does not apply to anyone in the age of grace. But the Mosaic covenant is still in force for unsaved Israel today. And it is the law which keeps the children of Israel separated from the surrounding nations, and still exist.

So, what do you think?

I do believe the law is what preserves unbelieving Israel. Even though it has no power to save them, it will preserve them as a people till the end. The very sad thing about it though, is although they follow the law and it keeps their identity, it will only serve to judge them in the end. How sad. To hang on to something for your life, only to have that something condemn you to death.

I do believe God has gathered Israel in these last days, the bones (unbelieving Israel), and soon the Spirit will be blown upon her, and she will be pruned(Jacobs' troubles) and reborn anew(restored). Restored as promised.

But, what you descirbed above sounds like dual covenant theology. And I just don't see that as valid. When Yeshua came, He changed the Torah, so to speak. By becoming High Priest and shedding his own blood for our sins, he transformed the Torah. Making the levitical priesthood obsolete. He made a 'new' covenant that was not like the old. And is not administered as the old. In fact, replacing the old (covenant, not people). Same people, different covenant. So I don't understand it as being 'in force'.

I can find nowhere in scripture that states both are intact, for their own purposes. Everthing states the old way is tranformed into the new. But maybe this is part of the mystery. How God preserves unbelieving Israel through the old law, even though it judges them in the end.

I see unbelieving Israel as Ishmael. They are cut off from the promises of Israel. YET, they have a promise from God to survive and exist as a nation. Only, they are not the nation of promise. But one destined to be set apart from her. Same father, but one receives the promise. The other is sent away. All they had in the family was separated, given them, and sent away. Did God bless Ishmael? Yes, but not with the blessings of Issac/Jacob. This is how I see the unrepentant of Israel.

But I can not maintain an understanding that both covenants exist at the same time. I just don't find that in the NC. Paul's drasha about Hagar and Mt. Sinai is quite explicit. The current Jerusalem is in slavery. The new Jerusalem is free, from the old ordinances. The book of Hebrews is quite descirptive in defining that which is passing away.

So, I see that the law does indeed maintain the identity of unbelieving Israel, but it's not that the old covenant is still in force. Only that it has the power to maintain the unrepentant children till the set time when God will judge them. And since Israel has been reborn recently after 1948 yrs, I think they should be worrying. They think Messiah is coming for the first time. How sad will they be to find out he came once before, and now he comes to judge, not save.

And do you think at that time God will give them a second chance? I do, most definitly. Many will come to him and be cleaned, and restored. But many more will not. God is all merciful, and faithful to maintain his promises. This is why I believe in the restoration of Israel.

[Qnts2]

First I'd like to say - great thread!

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

I think there might be something more to them than this.

As you know (?), the Spring Feasts were prophetic visuals of Jesus' death (Passover) and resurrection (Feast of First Fruits) and of "Pentecost" (Feat of Weeks).

So, might it be possible that the Fall Feasts reflect Messiah's 2nd coming the same way that the Spring Feasts represent His first coming?

Likewise, there is a prophecy about all the nations celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles.

I agree there is much more.

The Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth/Succos), I believe is when Jesus comes the 2nd time to dwell on earth in Jerusalem for the Millenium.

[Shimshon]

First I'd like to say - great thread!

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

I think there might be something more to them than this.

As you know (?), the Spring Feasts were prophetic visuals of Jesus' death (Passover) and resurrection (Feast of First Fruits) and of "Pentecost" (Feat of Weeks).

So, might it be possible that the Fall Feasts reflect Messiah's 2nd coming the same way that the Spring Feasts represent His first coming?

Likewise, there is a prophecy about all the nations celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles.

I thought this was all outlined by Qnts2?

The feast of tabernacles is sukkot. This feast represents God dwelling with us. To me, this is why that specific feast is mentioned. God will be living among and within his people, here on earth. The fulfillment of sukkot. All nations must celebrate God living among his people as their God and King. Sukkot is the fortelling of this reality.

[Qnts2]

Do I know Christians who do not believe in supersessionism? Yes. Classic dispensationalists do not believe in replacement theology.

You know, I don't think I can come to grips with dispensationalism either though. Isn't this what the pre-trib rapture adherants hold to? That the church gets raptured at the beginning of the tribulation, the dispensation of the gentiles is over, and now comes the 7 yrs of tribulation dispensed upon Israel. After Israel goes through the tribulation, whoever is left gets saved and added to the church as it comes back down. The church is spared the dispensation of wrath. But Israel has to go through it at her determined time. Or dispensation.

I don't think that's making me jealous either, if you know what I mean.

I view myself as a modified dispensationalist. I don't think the Great tribulation was meant to make Israel jealous, but to end the judgement, prepare the Jewish people, and reveal the Messiah. I'll have to look and think about it, to see if Israel's jealousy is just in the time of the Gentiles but is to carry forward.

The Tenakh talks of a time of Jacobs trouble. While I'm not crazy about the idea of the tribulation, I do believe it is the time when Gods attention returns solely to just Israel to put an end to the judgement of Israel.

We might disagree on this.

God used the Holy days to lay out His plan, with Passover as the redemption brought by Jesus. And the first fruit wave offering as the resurrection of Jesus. And Shavuot as the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and law written on our heart. When I look at scripture, the actual physical days these occurred, they occurred to the Jewish disciples in Israel. The Gentiles were not yet included but when they were later, they received the benefits of what God had done.

So I think there will be a time when the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

hmm. Interesting. I think we agree on much.

What do I believe dispensationalism missed? Well, the Mosaic covenant was given to Israel for their entire lives and for all generations. So, if a Jewish person is not yet under the New Covenant, they are still under the Mosaic covenant today. I think classic dispie believes that the Mosaic covenant does not apply to anyone in the age of grace. But the Mosaic covenant is still in force for unsaved Israel today. And it is the law which keeps the children of Israel separated from the surrounding nations, and still exist.

So, what do you think?

I do believe the law is what preserves unbelieving Israel. Even though it has no power to save them, it will preserve them as a people till the end. The very sad thing about it though, is although they follow the law and it keeps their identity, it will only serve to judge them in the end. How sad. To hang on to something for your life, only to have that something condemn you to death.

I do believe God has gathered Israel in these last days, the bones (unbelieving Israel), and soon the Spirit will be blown upon her, and she will be pruned(Jacobs' troubles) and reborn anew(restored). Restored as promised.

But, what you descirbed above sounds like dual covenant theology. And I just don't see that as valid. When Yeshua came, He changed the Torah, so to speak. By becoming High Priest and shedding his own blood for our sins, he transformed the Torah. Making the levitical priesthood obsolete. He made a 'new' covenant that was not like the old. And is not administered as the old. In fact, replacing the old (covenant, not people). Same people, different covenant. So I don't understand it as being 'in force'.

I can find nowhere in scripture that states both are intact, for their own purposes. Everthing states the old way is tranformed into the new. But maybe this is part of the mystery. How God preserves unbelieving Israel through the old law, even though it judges them in the end.

I see unbelieving Israel as Ishmael. They are cut off from the promises of Israel. YET, they have a promise from God to survive and exist as a nation. Only, they are not the nation of promise. But one destined to be set apart from her. Same father, but one receives the promise. The other is sent away. All they had in the family was separated, given them, and sent away. Did God bless Ishmael? Yes, but not with the blessings of Issac/Jacob. This is how I see the unrepentant of Israel.

But I can not maintain an understanding that both covenants exist at the same time. I just don't find that in the NC. Paul's drasha about Hagar and Mt. Sinai is quite explicit. The current Jerusalem is in slavery. The new Jerusalem is free, from the old ordinances. The book of Hebrews is quite descirptive in defining that which is passing away.

So, I see that the law does indeed maintain the identity of unbelieving Israel, but it's not that the old covenant is still in force. Only that it has the power to maintain the unrepentant children till the set time when God will judge them. And since Israel has been reborn recently after 1948 yrs, I think they should be worrying. They think Messiah is coming for the first time. How sad will they be to find out he came once before, and now he comes to judge, not save.

And do you think at that time God will give them a second chance? I do, most definitly. Many will come to him and be cleaned, and restored. But many more will not. God is all merciful, and faithful to maintain his promises. This is why I believe in the restoration of Israel.

I believe that the Mosaic covenant is fading away.

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

So the question between out views is when will the Mosaic covenant completely fade away. Of course fade away implies a more gradual action then a sudden switch from one covenant to another, making the older covenant completely obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

At the time of Jesus death and resurrection, the Mosaic covenant was becoming obsolete, growing old.

The Mosaic covenant did not promise eternal salvation. There is only one way to eternal salvation through Jesus (New Covenant(. But, I go back to the idea that the Mosaic covenant was for all children of Israel, for their entire lives and for all generations, so as long as there exists children of Israel who have not yet accepted the finished work of Jesus, there are generation who are obligated to the Mosaic covenant. It is fading, as some Jewish people are accepting Jesus, and will complete obsolesence, when every living child of Israel has come under the New Covenant. I believe that will be the day Jesus returns triumphantly and steps down on the Mt of Olives.

The Tenakh deals with Israel as a nation. Individuals were obedient, but when Israel sinned and was dispersed, even those like Daniel who had been obedient was dispersed with Israel as a member of the nation. Today, Israel is only blinded in part, so there are Jewish people who are finding the Messiah. I believe God will once again deal with Israel as a nation.

The first time, when Jesus triumphantly enter Jerusalem on the donkey, and went up to the Temple, the High Priest was to greet the Messiah with the Messianic greeting. 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. Instead, the Pharisee told Jesus to silence the people. Of course, since this was the Messianic greeting, even if the people had been silenced, the rocks and stones would have greeted the Messsiah. Then the leadership challenged Jesus at the Temple.

Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

So, when they do see Him again, they (the leaders) will say Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord. That will be the national redemption. So, yes, I do believe there will be a second chance, but it will be that generation which sees these things.

adding: I should say, I am entirely opposed to Dual Covenant theology. Dual Covenant theology basically believes that the Jewish people already have a covenant, so don't need to hear about Jesus and the New Covenant.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Qnts2

[Shimshon]

Do I know Christians who do not believe in supersessionism? Yes. Classic dispensationalists do not believe in replacement theology.

You know, I don't think I can come to grips with dispensationalism either though. Isn't this what the pre-trib rapture adherants hold to? That the church gets raptured at the beginning of the tribulation, the dispensation of the gentiles is over, and now comes the 7 yrs of tribulation dispensed upon Israel. After Israel goes through the tribulation, whoever is left gets saved and added to the church as it comes back down. The church is spared the dispensation of wrath. But Israel has to go through it at her determined time. Or dispensation.

I don't think that's making me jealous either, if you know what I mean.

I view myself as a modified dispensationalist. I don't think the Great tribulation was meant to make Israel jealous, but to end the judgement, prepare the Jewish people, and reveal the Messiah. I'll have to look and think about it, to see if Israel's jealousy is just in the time of the Gentiles but is to carry forward.

The Tenakh talks of a time of Jacobs trouble. While I'm not crazy about the idea of the tribulation, I do believe it is the time when Gods attention returns solely to just Israel to put an end to the judgement of Israel.

We might disagree on this.

God used the Holy days to lay out His plan, with Passover as the redemption brought by Jesus. And the first fruit wave offering as the resurrection of Jesus. And Shavuot as the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and law written on our heart. When I look at scripture, the actual physical days these occurred, they occurred to the Jewish disciples in Israel. The Gentiles were not yet included but when they were later, they received the benefits of what God had done.

So I think there will be a time when the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

I believe the fall Holy days are initially for Israel alone also. Rosh HaShonah, or Yom Teruah, is the call to repentence of Israel. The days of awe are the time when Israel is called to work out that repentance. Yom Kippur is the day when the sacrifice for the nation is applied and the book of Life closed. So, this is applied to Israel, the nation.

I believe that the tribulation is also when the fall Holy days are fulfilled in behalf of Israel. It is when the blindness in part will be lifted.

hmm. Interesting. I think we agree on much.

What do I believe dispensationalism missed? Well, the Mosaic covenant was given to Israel for their entire lives and for all generations. So, if a Jewish person is not yet under the New Covenant, they are still under the Mosaic covenant today. I think classic dispie believes that the Mosaic covenant does not apply to anyone in the age of grace. But the Mosaic covenant is still in force for unsaved Israel today. And it is the law which keeps the children of Israel separated from the surrounding nations, and still exist.

So, what do you think?

I do believe the law is what preserves unbelieving Israel. Even though it has no power to save them, it will preserve them as a people till the end. The very sad thing about it though, is although they follow the law and it keeps their identity, it will only serve to judge them in the end. How sad. To hang on to something for your life, only to have that something condemn you to death.

I do believe God has gathered Israel in these last days, the bones (unbelieving Israel), and soon the Spirit will be blown upon her, and she will be pruned(Jacobs' troubles) and reborn anew(restored). Restored as promised.

But, what you descirbed above sounds like dual covenant theology. And I just don't see that as valid. When Yeshua came, He changed the Torah, so to speak. By becoming High Priest and shedding his own blood for our sins, he transformed the Torah. Making the levitical priesthood obsolete. He made a 'new' covenant that was not like the old. And is not administered as the old. In fact, replacing the old (covenant, not people). Same people, different covenant. So I don't understand it as being 'in force'.

I can find nowhere in scripture that states both are intact, for their own purposes. Everthing states the old way is tranformed into the new. But maybe this is part of the mystery. How God preserves unbelieving Israel through the old law, even though it judges them in the end.

I see unbelieving Israel as Ishmael. They are cut off from the promises of Israel. YET, they have a promise from God to survive and exist as a nation. Only, they are not the nation of promise. But one destined to be set apart from her. Same father, but one receives the promise. The other is sent away. All they had in the family was separated, given them, and sent away. Did God bless Ishmael? Yes, but not with the blessings of Issac/Jacob. This is how I see the unrepentant of Israel.

But I can not maintain an understanding that both covenants exist at the same time. I just don't find that in the NC. Paul's drasha about Hagar and Mt. Sinai is quite explicit. The current Jerusalem is in slavery. The new Jerusalem is free, from the old ordinances. The book of Hebrews is quite descirptive in defining that which is passing away.

So, I see that the law does indeed maintain the identity of unbelieving Israel, but it's not that the old covenant is still in force. Only that it has the power to maintain the unrepentant children till the set time when God will judge them. And since Israel has been reborn recently after 1948 yrs, I think they should be worrying. They think Messiah is coming for the first time. How sad will they be to find out he came once before, and now he comes to judge, not save.

And do you think at that time God will give them a second chance? I do, most definitly. Many will come to him and be cleaned, and restored. But many more will not. God is all merciful, and faithful to maintain his promises. This is why I believe in the restoration of Israel.

I believe that the Mosaic covenant is fading away.

2 Cor 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

So the question between out views is when will the Mosaic covenant completely fade away. Of course fade away implies a more gradual action then a sudden switch from one covenant to another, making the older covenant completely obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

At the time of Jesus death and resurrection, the Mosaic covenant was becoming obsolete, growing old.

The Mosaic covenant did not promise eternal salvation. There is only one way to eternal salvation through Jesus (New Covenant(. But, I go back to the idea that the Mosaic covenant was for all children of Israel, for their entire lives and for all generations, so as long as there exists children of Israel who have not yet accepted the finished work of Jesus, there are generation who are obligated to the Mosaic covenant. It is fading, as some Jewish people are accepting Jesus, and will complete obsolesence, when every living child of Israel has come under the New Covenant. I believe that will be the day Jesus returns triumphantly and steps down on the Mt of Olives.

The Tenakh deals with Israel as a nation. Individuals were obedient, but when Israel sinned and was dispersed, even those like Daniel who had been obedient was dispersed with Israel as a member of the nation. Today, Israel is only blinded in part, so there are Jewish people who are finding the Messiah. I believe God will once again deal with Israel as a nation.

The first time, when Jesus triumphantly enter Jerusalem on the donkey, and went up to the Temple, the High Priest was to greet the Messiah with the Messianic greeting. 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. Instead, the Pharisee told Jesus to silence the people. Of course, since this was the Messianic greeting, even if the people had been silenced, the rocks and stones would have greeted the Messsiah. Then the leadership challenged Jesus at the Temple.

Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

So, when they do see Him again, they (the leaders) will say Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord. That will be the national redemption. So, yes, I do believe there will be a second chance, but it will be that generation which sees these things.

adding: I should say, I am entirely opposed to Dual Covenant theology. Dual Covenant theology basically believes that the Jewish people already have a covenant, so don't need to hear about Jesus and the New Covenant.

My mistake for misunderstanding you. It did confuse me at first, now I know why. I think most Messianic Jews hold to our understanding. I mean, I've not met a fellow Jewish believer who did not. Though, I know we have run into many gentiles who take this and run away, far away from anything resembling Yeshua's words. But that's their folly, not mine.

I wonder, if Torah observant gentiles will gravitate so far towards unbelieving Israel's identity that they will eventually be included with her in her removal?

Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

Since gentiles identify by observing the law given Moses as Israel, and since this is not of God, would not God gather all the weeds up onto the threashing floor to be thrashed? Messianic Gentiles see themselves as Israel because of Torah observance. They believe God calls all nations to observe the Torah given Moses, and identify as Israel in such a manner. Since God allows people to their own folly, I see them joining unbelieving Israel because they see their identity as part of her more than part of Messiah. They see Messiah as ingrafting them into unbelieving Israel. They want all her blessings, but don't realize they are gaining all her curses too.

How misserable to join her in this way and find yourself in tribulation with her, and seeing Yeshua at the other end of that tribulation. They litterally are placing themselves between The Rock and the hard place. And believe it is the work of God. I find this sad. If they attach themselves too far into Orthodox Judaism, would they not suffer the consequences? Being saved, they believe they are part of an unsaved people. And identify as such. I see them being fooled, but they see it as glory, a calling, the reason for their salvation.

It's like Yeshua is the center hub, and all else is getting propelled outward, but they see their existance as out on the edge where things are being flung off. Sad thing is, they don't see this analogy. Because they obviously don't see Yeshua as the center, but Torah. And this is what draws them away from Yeshua's Truth, his Word. I just don't see them following Yeshua's instructions. And I pray for them. Because they are so in love with God yet they are believing a lie. Gentiles are always causing a rukus within the Jewish community! lol

[Qnts2]

My mistake for misunderstanding you. It did confuse me at first, now I know why. I think most Messianic Jews hold to our understanding. I mean, I've not met a fellow Jewish believer who did not. Though, I know we have run into many gentiles who take this and run away, far away from anything resembling Yeshua's words. But that's their folly, not mine.

I wonder, if Torah observant gentiles will gravitate so far towards unbelieving Israel's identity that they will eventually be included with her in her removal?

Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

Since gentiles identify by observing the law given Moses as Israel, and since this is not of God, would not God gather all the weeds up onto the threashing floor to be thrashed? Messianic Gentiles see themselves as Israel because of Torah observance. They believe God calls all nations to observe the Torah given Moses, and identify as Israel in such a manner. Since God allows people to their own folly, I see them joining unbelieving Israel because they see their identity as part of her more than part of Messiah. They see Messiah as ingrafting them into unbelieving Israel. They want all her blessings, but don't realize they are gaining all her curses too.

How misserable to join her in this way and find yourself in tribulation with her, and seeing Yeshua at the other end of that tribulation. They litterally are placing themselves between The Rock and the hard place. And believe it is the work of God. I find this sad. If they attach themselves too far into Orthodox Judaism, would they not suffer the consequences? Being saved, they believe they are part of an unsaved people. And identify as such. I see them being fooled, but they see it as glory, a calling, the reason for their salvation.

It's like Yeshua is the center hub, and all else is getting propelled outward, but they see their existance as out on the edge where things are being flung off. Sad thing is, they don't see this analogy. Because they obviously don't see Yeshua as the center, but Torah. And this is what draws them away from Yeshua's Truth, his Word. I just don't see them following Yeshua's instructions. And I pray for them. Because they are so in love with God yet they are believing a lie. Gentiles are always causing a rukus within the Jewish community! lol

This thread started with talking about making Israel jealous, and in it was mentioned Replacement theology which is actually Gentiles wanting to be Israel.

I'll mention two other theologies which we are both familiar with. Both desire to be Israel.

Two House theology and One Law theology. Just for some history for those who are not familiar with either one.

Two House Theology has been around since Herbert W. Armstrong. But there is a second group which started teaching it in the 1990's under the label of Two House.

There were some Gentiles who started to worship at a Messianic Judaism synagogue. Since Messianic Judaism is a place for Jewish believers to worship in a more Jewish cultural way, it is geared towards Jewish believers. Jewish believers have some unique trials when they come to believe on Jesus and meeting together helps to deal with common trials. Also, Jewish believers often have entire families who do not believe on Jesus, so Messianic Judaism has, as a primary purpose, to share the gospel with the Jewish people, by Jewish believers. Gentiles who have a heart for the Jewish people will sometimes join in with the Jewish believers in meeting and worshipping in Messianic Judaism synagogues. But, some come just to learn more about Judaism. For those without this calling, it is difficult to worship in another culture as they will never really be a member of the culture.

So, some Gentiles started to think that Jewish believers were superior to Gentile believers. This is entirely wrong but it is what they thought, and to try to be equal with Jewish believers, they started to look at differing beliefs. An anti-semitic group called 'British Israelism' teaches that the British are actually some of the lost tribes, so the British are actually lost Israel. At the same time, British Israelism teaches the Jewish people living today are not really Jewish, but usurpers. Two House grabbed onto the idea that they might be 'Israel' because they are members of the 10 so called lost tribes. They theorized that Gentiles who come to Jesus are actually descendents of the lost tribes of Israel, but don't know it. They believe it is their job to make the Jewish people accept them as the lost tribes, so the 'two sticks' can come together. Since the Jewish people won't accept them as Israel, many have ended up angry at all Jewish people for denying them the right to be Israel.

Some of the Two House Gentiles started to study Judaism and observe the Mosaic law. Jewish Rabbis won't usually take on Gentiles as students, but the few who do, do it to get the Gentiles to convince Jewish believers that Jesus is not the Messiah. So, in the end, these Two House Gentiles who are taught by the Chassidic (Lubavitch) Rabbis want to be recognized as fully Jewish, and some have renounced Jesus and converted to Judaism.

For a while, there were enough Two House Gentiles renouncing Jesus, that it was a big concern among the Two House group.

One Law is the belief that Gentiles are grafted into Israel and as Israel, they are required to observe the Mosaic law. They do not like Messianic Judaism at all, because Messianic Judaism teaches that Gentiles are not obligated to observe the Mosaic law, and the New Covenant is not the same as the Mosaic Covenant. One Law Gentiles often accuse Messianic Jews of denying them the right to observe the Mosaic law, and making Gentiles un-equal with the Jewish believers, because Jewish believers are denying them the law, which they view as the equalizer.

Wow. They do not seem to understand that Jesus made us one. Not the law. So yes, they really confuse Jesus and the Mosaic law. They are more concerned about the Mosaic law then Jesus so there is a serious issue. Having talked to One Law adherents, I do wonder if many are true believers to start with.

But, I do not believe they will be counted among unbelieving Israel as they are not descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and actually disagree with the Jewish people preferring to make up their own religion which is nothing like Christianity, Messianic Judaism or Judaism.

[Botz]

Very good thread guys

The way I look at the Mosaic covenant is that it acted like a cone shaped funnel and if Torah was kept and understood

it could only lead to one place Messiah. (Simeon rejoiced to behold what he was promised, the Salvation of the L-rd.)

If that is the case, I am convinced that if Jew reads the Tenach, G-d can open his eyes and lead him to Yeshua, so that

although the Torah of Moses has in a sense been superceded by the Torah of Yeshua, it can still lead a Jew to his Saviour.

I can only surmise that many Jewish people missed their Messiah because of two things:

1. The mystery of Jewish rejection benefitting the Gentiles as ordained by YHWH

2. Shepherds of Israel with no understanding turning the peoples hearts from the Truth.

[Shimshon]

Very good thread guys

The way I look at the Mosaic covenant is that it acted like a cone shaped funnel and if Torah was kept and understood

it could only lead to one place Messiah. (Simeon rejoiced to behold what he was promised, the Salvation of the L-rd.)

If that is the case, I am convinced that if Jew reads the Tenach, G-d can open his eyes and lead him to Yeshua, so that

although the Torah of Moses has in a sense been superceded by the Torah of Yeshua, it can still lead a Jew to his Saviour.

I can only surmise that many Jewish people missed their Messiah because of two things:

1. The mystery of Jewish rejection benefitting the Gentiles as ordained by YHWH

2. Shepherds of Israel with no understanding turning the peoples hearts from the Truth.

I agree, today when unbelieving Jews read the Tenach they still have the chance to have the veil removed. As the original Jewish apostles did. I think Qnts2 hit on a good thought when she mentioned how the Torah is 'fading', and 'becoming', obsolete. And that when the last unbelieving Jew comes to Messiah, the Torah given Moses will have completely fulfilled it's purpose. It revealed the Messiah of Israel to the world, and preserved the people of Israel till they each turn to Messiah and say; "Blessed are you who come in the name of the Lord". It promises the Messiah to Israel, and preserves the identity of Israel as they come to Messiah. This is why it never had the power to save, and why salvation was not the purpose 'of' "Torah. Salvation is the purpose of Messiah, So Torah's purpose was to lead people to Messiah. Once all Israel comes to Messiah, the glory it had will have faded out completely. Just like once the sun come up, it completely washes out any illumination from a candle. Or any light source here on earth. During the night, the light shines bright. But during the day, it's light can not even be seen. Which is why we turn the lights off when the sun comes up. It's a waste of energy. The sun drowns out the lower light sources completely. Now, if you have something blocking your light, then you may want to illuminate your surroundings with a smaller light source. But, when the Sun comes out for good, why would you need a smaller light? If you are called out into the light with no clouds or sin in your presence, why would you need a smaller light source at all? Does a flashlight serve you in the bright of the noon day sun? No.

I don't think I've ever heard Torah described as a funnel. But, I imagine each man has a unique perspective when looking into the heart of God. Many analogies can fit.. The Torah is a road, that when followed leads to Yeshua. She is a scroll, that when unbound and read reveals Yeshua as the plot. She is a seed, that when fully grasped produces a Tree of Life. And Torah is a sponge, that when wrung out flows the blood of Messiah.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah, as such, the instructions worked perfectly. They manifested the Messiah of Israel, as promised. The Torah brought forth Yeshua, as promised. And now Yeshua brings forth eternal life, as promised. And when all have been raised to eternal life by the coming of Messiah, that which was fading will have faded completely. I believe when Yeshua comes to complete that which was promised, and restores all things, to Jacob and the world, He will again speak and instruct his children on the life of the eternal Kingdom. Once we are on that side of eternity. He will wipe away all our tears and comfort us in eternal life and love. All will be made straight, and all will be understood.

[Botz]

I don't think I've ever heard Torah described as a funnel. But, I imagine each man has a unique perspective when looking into the heart of God. Many analogies can fit.. The Torah is a road, that when followed leads to Yeshua. She is a scroll, that when unbound and read reveals Yeshua as the plot. She is a seed, that when fully grasped produces a Tree of Life. And Torah is a sponge, that when wrung out flows the blood of Messiah.

Lol I can understand that, it certainly isn't a biblical picture, merely one that came to me as I was puzzling out the role of Torah.

Many translations don't really give the full import of what the purpose of Torah was, and the schoolmaster image or wording

doesn't do justice...it is much more along the lines of having an armed guard to take people to where they are meant to go,

and to guard and protect them along the way. (Gal 3:24)

I very much liked the way you described the glory of Moshe's Torah being outshone/replaced by Yeshuas Torah...I see a

wonderful comparison in the way John spoke of Jesus saying He must increase I must decrease, it is very symbolic of

exactly what you have been talking about as John represented those under the Law. (John 3:30 Luke 7:28)