The 144,000 and their duties/Function

[Steve_S]

After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation.

Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever referred to as the restrainer? Counselor, yes, comforter, yes, restrainer, not once.

Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!!

I don't see any intimation about the identity of the restrainer here, at all. Honestly, I see nothing that wing has said as being offensive, he was challenging you on a theological point, which we should all do with each other if we feel there is an error. As for myself, I see absolutely no evidence of the identity of the restrainer. The problem with this line of reasoning is that there's an entire doctrine that is partially built on what you call an intimation. There is no foundation of rock there, it's most definitively sand. If your initial premise is unprovable then the doctrine has to be changed or has to go, this doctrine being specific with regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thess.

Here it is word for word from the NKJV:

2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Here it is from the ESV:

2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

Here it is from the NASB:

2Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

The case that I'm making here is that there is no case to be made based on these two verses as to the identity of the restrainer. All we can do is make guesses, basically. I don't even see a tacit intimation. I see nothing making reference to the identity insofar as revealing it. All we are really told here is that the audience that he is writing to at the time knows the identity.

[missmuffet]

The 144,000 are all Jeovah's Witnesses according to..... ahem... Jeovah's Witnesses!

Yes.

[Guest]

You know what they say about assuming. "Pre-tribers" don't assume that the Holy Spirit "goes missing" after the Rapture event. Scripture teaches that all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit to guarantee our salvation. After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation. So, He is present during the tribulation period, just not as He is in the Church age. Perhaps you should be more informed before you continue to belittle those who believe the Bible when it literally says that Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive and take us to the "Father's house." We won't be here during any portion of the tribulation. We who believe this don't dump on you because you don't, so you need to quit with the barely disguised condescension.

Probably no statement that can be made about premies, will apply to them all, other than they beleive in a pre-tribulational return of Christ for His church. Many do assume that the Holy Spirit goes missing, I have heard it myself. You can speak to your own version of the idea, but not for all pre-tribbers.

"After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer"

- - my point, "sometimes called the restrainer", by people who take liberties with scripture, but not expressly so by the bible. I do not claim to know who or what the restrainer is, but a better biblical case can be made for Michael being the restrainer I believe. No matter, the Bible does not say it is, and it is therefore taking inproper licsense for anyone to say that we know who it is.

I was not trying to make a case one way or the other about it, just explaining one reason why some people assume the the 144000 are witnesses. I made my point, I made it accurately, and I see no reason for you to be upset with that.

Perhaps you should be more informed before you continue to belittle those who believe the Bible when it literally says that Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive and take us to the "Father's house."

Perhaps you should be more informed about my position as well, since I also beleive the Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive. We we disagree is where from there. In as much as there is no sripture that says we go straight to the Fathers house right at the rapture, I think you assume to much to think of that as a literal understanding of the Bible.

We won't be here during any portion of the tribulation.

That is an assumption, that I, and millions of other beleivers from the first century to the presnt time, do not share.

We who believe this don't dump on you because you don't, so you need to quit with the barely disguised condescension.

"We" really? Maybe you should speak for yourself again, and not for all others who believe more or less as you do. I have been called a heritic, cultist and a few other choice labels for expressing my view of what the bible teaches on these matters. For over thirty years I have sat in churches where the pre-trib rapture is taught, read the books on it etc, and I myself beleived it also for a while, I have a lot of repect for many people who beleive it is true. I get along fine with most of them, becuase they are secure enough and mature enough, to recognize that differneces of opinion can peacefully co-exist, and not take it personally.

However, though I think these wonderful people are sincere, I also beleive they are being deceived by an ear tickling doctrine. The doctrine does make be a bit angry precisely because it is decieving my brothers and sisters.

So, I am not trying to dump on you or anyone, but I am also not trying to hide my disdain for what I beleive to be a false doctrine. Peace.

[wingnut-]

Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!!

The passage does not mention the Holy Spirit, nor does any other passage in scripture assign this title to the Holy Spirit. I have six different versions of the bible here, I went through each of them, and not one of them capitalizes he in that passage, from my KJV to my NIV. I understand scripture just fine, no need to get hostile because you cannot prove your claim. I will challenge anyone who says something that is unscriptural to back it up with scripture, you cannot. What you propose is that the Holy Spirit is going to abandon mankind at a time when they need Him most, and it's ludicrous.

As far as who I believe the restrainer may be, let's look at scripture in regards to the end time for a likely candidate.

Daniel 10:21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince).

Daniel 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

Michael is the archangel appointed to guard the Jewish people, he is only mentioned in these three instances by name, do you think that's coincidence? Furthermore get a dictionary, look up counselor, comforter, and restrainer and see which description is vastly different.

Is it not a widely held belief that angels intercede on our behalf in matters of the spiritual realm? We pray, they take up our cause?

[Bible_Gazer]

The 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 14:1-5.

Where did the belief that these 144,000 evangelize the world during the 70th week. It is not in Scripture.

Scripture only mentions two functions; One is to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, then Two is to sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000.

They were sealed not for what they will do during the 70th week, but what they will do during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and following.

In Christ

Montana Marv

They are the first fruits from the earth. Redeemed from among mankind.

Follow Jesus - also on white horses in Rev.19 - the army of the Lord

Kings and Priest

riegn with Christ 1,000 years

The Bride

The first resurrection group

they did sing a song, its the same one in Rev.5 when the four best and 24 elders sang

being from humanity of different tongues and nations.

and their is another group the Jewish 144,000 sealed

[Montana Marv]

This verse is important;

Rev 14: 6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth - to every nation, tribe, language, and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the sporings of water."

This shows that an angel is proclaiming the gospel, and when? Just before the hour of his judgment.

v8. - Then a second angel followed and said, Fallen, Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.

v.9 - Then a third angel followed them and said in a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which as been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented.......... forever...

When did Babylon the Great fall in time referenced by other events during the 70th week.

When looking at Rev 18. v 11 - The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargo any more. v 17b, 18a - every ship captain, and all who travel by ship, the ssailor and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far offf. When they see the smoke of her burning...

Figure when Babylon is destroyed, then one can approximate the timing of the angel with the eternal gospel being proclaimed. For commerce was still in at full steam before Babylons destruction.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[wingnut-]

Scripture only mentions two functions; One is to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, then Two is to sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000.

Hey bible gazer, how does what you state below measure up with the above? The passage says it's a new song, and that no one else can learn it, so how do you conclude a) it's the same song, and b) that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders know it?

They are the first fruits from the earth. Redeemed from among mankind.

Follow Jesus - also on white horses in Rev.19 - the army of the Lord

Kings and Priest

riegn with Christ 1,000 years

The Bride

The first resurrection group

they did sing a song, its the same one in Rev.5 when the four best and 24 elders sang

being from humanity of different tongues and nations.

and their is another group the Jewish 144,000 sealed

I'm also curious how you conclude these are two different groups of 144,000, based on the following verses it appears to me they are the same group. You will notice in the first passage it states "we", meaning more than one, which is more specific in the second passage.

Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

[Guest]

After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation.

Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever referred to as the restrainer? Counselor, yes, comforter, yes, restrainer, not once.

Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!!

I don't see any intimation about the identity of the restrainer here, at all. Honestly, I see nothing that wing has said as being offensive, he was challenging you on a theological point, which we should all do with each other if we feel there is an error. As for myself, I see absolutely no evidence of the identity of the restrainer. The problem with this line of reasoning is that there's an entire doctrine that is partially built on what you call an intimation. There is no foundation of rock there, it's most definitively sand. If your initial premise is unprovable then the doctrine has to be changed or has to go, this doctrine being specific with regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thess.

Here it is word for word from the NKJV:

2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Here it is from the ESV:

2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

Here it is from the NASB:

2Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

The case that I'm making here is that there is no case to be made based on these two verses as to the identity of the restrainer. All we can do is make guesses, basically. I don't even see a tacit intimation. I see nothing making reference to the identity insofar as revealing it. All we are really told here is that the audience that he is writing to at the time knows the identity.

What is the big deal? I stated that the Holy Spirit is sometimes call "the Restrainer." Through interpretation. Down through the years there have been many different views on the identity of the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7. Some of the most popular have been the State of Israel, the Roman Empire, the general principle of law and government, the Archangel Michael, the Holy Spirit, and the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit embodied in the Church. That is my reference point. You have come to your own conclusions, I to mine. I don't care!! Make the word mean whatever you want it to mean. It doesn't change the facts.

[Guest]

You know what they say about assuming. "Pre-tribers" don't assume that the Holy Spirit "goes missing" after the Rapture event. Scripture teaches that all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit to guarantee our salvation. After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation. So, He is present during the tribulation period, just not as He is in the Church age. Perhaps you should be more informed before you continue to belittle those who believe the Bible when it literally says that Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive and take us to the "Father's house." We won't be here during any portion of the tribulation. We who believe this don't dump on you because you don't, so you need to quit with the barely disguised condescension.

Probably no statement that can be made about premies, will apply to them all, other than they beleive in a pre-tribulational return of Christ for His church. Many do assume that the Holy Spirit goes missing, I have heard it myself. You can speak to your own version of the idea, but not for all pre-tribbers.

"After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer"

- - my point, "sometimes called the restrainer", by people who take liberties with scripture, but not expressly so by the bible. I do not claim to know who or what the restrainer is, but a better biblical case can be made for Michael being the restrainer I believe. No matter, the Bible does not say it is, and it is therefore taking inproper licsense for anyone to say that we know who it is.

I was not trying to make a case one way or the other about it, just explaining one reason why some people assume the the 144000 are witnesses. I made my point, I made it accurately, and I see no reason for you to be upset with that.

Perhaps you should be more informed before you continue to belittle those who believe the Bible when it literally says that Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive and take us to the "Father's house."

Perhaps you should be more informed about my position as well, since I also beleive the Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive. We we disagree is where from there. In as much as there is no sripture that says we go straight to the Fathers house right at the rapture, I think you assume to much to think of that as a literal understanding of the Bible.

We won't be here during any portion of the tribulation.

That is an assumption, that I, and millions of other beleivers from the first century to the presnt time, do not share.

We who believe this don't dump on you because you don't, so you need to quit with the barely disguised condescension.

"We" really? Maybe you should speak for yourself again, and not for all others who believe more or less as you do. I have been called a heritic, cultist and a few other choice labels for expressing my view of what the bible teaches on these matters. For over thirty years I have sat in churches where the pre-trib rapture is taught, read the books on it etc, and I myself beleived it also for a while, I have a lot of repect for many people who beleive it is true. I get along fine with most of them, becuase they are secure enough and mature enough, to recognize that differneces of opinion can peacefully co-exist, and not take it personally.

However, though I think these wonderful people are sincere, I also beleive they are being deceived by an ear tickling doctrine. The doctrine does make be a bit angry precisely because it is decieving my brothers and sisters.

So, I am not trying to dump on you or anyone, but I am also not trying to hide my disdain for what I beleive to be a false doctrine. Peace.

As I also believe that your doctrine is false and is deceiving to our brothers and sisters. I have gone to great lengths to try and make it clear that much of what I am posting is what I understand scripture to mean, as I understand it. It is not, and as never been, my intention to imply that I speak with the authority from or for any group. Sometimes I may use the word "we", not thinking about it being taken as a corporate word. I apologize for that. I have a peace about the truthful nature of the Rapture, I have asked the Father to reveal the truth about it to me - if I be wrong. And I have and am listening for such revelation. But until and unless the Father reveals to me otherwise, I stand fast to what I believe. Ciao!

[Guest]

Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!!

I have six different versions of the bible here, I went through each of them, and not one of them capitalizes he in that passage, from my KJV to my NIV.

I guess I must be seeing things then. Look for yourself.