King Saul's possession

[Guest ninhao]

I appreciate what you are stating, but I am not going to go back and forth with this because I have found it's just a waste of time when there are only two

respondents...nothing personal, but I doubt either of us is going to change their position..

I also appreciate your position SevenSeas. ( sometimes change my position after much prayer and research )

Thank you for your input.

[Guest ninhao]

I always wonder why we separate OT saints in such a way.

Being considered righteous by God implies being saved which necessitates Holy spirit indwelling.

Where is the Biblical evidence for this please Ninhao?

Interesting discussion.

God bless you both!

GE

Hello GE I make this claim based upon 2 things.

1. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2. Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

We also have OT scriptures which say the Holy Spirit was inside particular believers so perhaps the onus will be upon you to show this is not equivalent to NT indwelling.

I see no solid scriptural reason to suggest OT Saints did not have the Spirit if Christ dwell in them and I believe it is a necessary dispensation position to think otherwise.

imo.

[Matthitjah]

Was the gift of indwelling of the Holy Spirit a promise God gave to Abraham and does this mean Abraham himself was not indwelt by the Holy spirit.

This is interesting and although I'm much a novice on this subject I will give my assessment if that's ok.

Gen 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

"and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

I assume this part of God's promises to Abraham is concerning the coming Messiah. Let us look closely at this promise and what it entails.

" and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" . Interesting that this promise is something which will be given to all families of the earth "in" Abraham. This to me implies that the blessing will come about because the blesser, Christ Jesus, will come from the lineage of Abraham.

The implications from the blessing God endowed upon all families of the earth "in" Abraham are

1. Jesus came from Abraham's lineage

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

....

Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

2. All people would receive this blessing and not only direct descendant of Abraham. All who have faith become heirs to the promise given to Abraham.

Rom 4:16-18 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

So far the promise does not imply the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not available to Abraham but that the indwelling of the Holy spirit would become available to all who have faith.

It seems this is about salvation going out to all the world.

Gal 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now 2 Peter is interesting.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Here Peter was making clear that because of the "precious promises" ( all families blessed ) the "partaking of the divine nature" ( being saved and having the Spirit of Christ ) was available to "ye" ( the recipients of the letter ) . It was not a special privilege only given to the elite.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I see no reason to claim the promise made to Abraham was concerning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but more likely that this promise was concerning the availability of salvation ( and thence the Holy Spirit ) to all people not only the Jew.

Abraham was indwelt by the Spirit of Christ I am confident.

Explain this then;

Heb 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Abraham and Sara are mentioned in context here with this scripture.

What did Paul mean when he stood before Agrippa and stated this;

Ac 26:7

Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

[Matthitjah]

I always wonder why we separate OT saints in such a way.

Being considered righteous by God implies being saved which necessitates Holy spirit indwelling.

Where is the Biblical evidence for this please Ninhao?

Interesting discussion.

God bless you both!

GE

Hello GE I make this claim based upon 2 things.

1. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2. Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

We also have OT scriptures which say the Holy Spirit was inside particular believers so perhaps the onus will be upon you to show this is not equivalent to NT indwelling.

I see no solid scriptural reason to suggest OT Saints did not have the Spirit if Christ dwell in them and I believe it is a necessary dispensation position to think otherwise.

imo.

You haven't yet offered a solid scriptural stance for why you believe this.

Romans is a letter Paul wrote to believers in Rome.

The Hebrew's verse applies to the nature of Christ and has nothing to do with the state of man other than in relation to Christ.

Context is everything.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest ninhao]

Explain this then;

Heb 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Abraham and Sara are mentioned in context here with this scripture.

Yes of course.

Abraham had not received the promises because they were to come in the future. How could Abraham receive a promise that was given concerning “all families in the earth” when this could not be fulfilled until Christ came and offered salvation to the gentiles ? ( I am solely speaking of the promise that concerns salvation of non Jews and not promises relating only to the Jew. )

Eph 2:15-22 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

What did Paul mean when he stood before Agrippa and stated this;

Ac 26:7

Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Act 26:7-8 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. (8) Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

This is concerning the resurrection of the dead of which Christ became the first fruit.

1Co 15:12-14 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Paul was relating his hope of the resurrection. What do you say the “hope to come” for the 12 tribes is?

I am not certain why this scripture is being used concerning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is, in context, concerning the resurrection of the dead.

[Guest ninhao]

You haven't yet offered a solid scriptural stance for why you believe this.

Romans is a letter Paul wrote to believers in Rome.

The Hebrew's verse applies to the nature of Christ and has nothing to do with the state of man other than in relation to Christ.

Context is everything.

Peace,

Dave

I disagree.

Could you please address the entire post.

1. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2. Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

We also have OT scriptures which say the Holy Spirit was inside particular believers so perhaps the onus will be upon you to show this is not equivalent to NT indwelling.

I see no solid scriptural reason to suggest OT Saints did not have the Spirit if Christ dwell in them and I believe it is a necessary dispensation position to think otherwise.

imo.

[Matthitjah]

Explain this then;

Heb 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Abraham and Sara are mentioned in context here with this scripture.

Yes of course.

Abraham had not received the promises because they were to come in the future. How could Abraham receive a promise that was given concerning “all families in the earth” when this could not be fulfilled until Christ came and offered salvation to the gentiles ? ( I am solely speaking of the promise that concerns salvation of non Jews and not promises relating only to the Jew. )

Eph 2:15-22 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

What did Paul mean when he stood before Agrippa and stated this;

Ac 26:7

Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Act 26:7-8 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. (8) Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

This is concerning the resurrection of the dead of which Christ became the first fruit.

1Co 15:12-14 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Paul was relating his hope of the resurrection. What do you say the “hope to come” for the 12 tribes is?

I am not certain why this scripture is being used concerning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is, in context, concerning the resurrection of the dead.

The Promise wasn't just a land, a people, a place, but also a Blessing so that others might be blessed.

Paul was stating that his people served the Lord day and night but had not received this blessing. With Christ's death and Ressurection came the fulfillment of this promise.

Abraham longed to see it but never attained it in this life. He saw it because he did not die as some suppose, he saw the face of God and the fulfillment of the promise because God is a God of the Living and the not the dead. The promise was Good.

These verses speak of new life.

Afterall, Christ told Nicodemus that he must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

You haven't yet offered a solid scriptural stance for why you believe this.

Romans is a letter Paul wrote to believers in Rome.

The Hebrew's verse applies to the nature of Christ and has nothing to do with the state of man other than in relation to Christ.

Context is everything.

Peace,

Dave

I disagree.

Could you please address the entire post.

1. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2. Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

We also have OT scriptures which say the Holy Spirit was inside particular believers so perhaps the onus will be upon you to show this is not equivalent to NT indwelling.

I see no solid scriptural reason to suggest OT Saints did not have the Spirit if Christ dwell in them and I believe it is a necessary dispensation position to think otherwise.

imo.

I did address it. You are out of context.

In the OT the Spirit came upon people, but God never indwelt anyone who was full of sin and dead in tresspasses. That person must die because their Blood is required for their sins. The only way that the Holy Spirit could be sent to indwell a believer in the NT was after the substitutionary death and the subsequent ressurection of the Lord and His ascension to the Father.

Sampson was not indwelt and neither was David. David was anointed and Gods Spirit came upon him. Samson had God's Spirit come upon him. it also left him.

Jg 14:6

And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he tore him as he would have torn a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

Jg 16:20

And she said, The Philistines be upon you, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he knew not that the LORD was departed from him.

I believe that this poses a problem for your theory. How do you propose to solve it?

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Explain this then;

Heb 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Abraham and Sara are mentioned in context here with this scripture.

Yes of course.

Abraham had not received the promises because they were to come in the future. How could Abraham receive a promise that was given concerning “all families in the earth” when this could not be fulfilled until Christ came and offered salvation to the gentiles ? ( I am solely speaking of the promise that concerns salvation of non Jews and not promises relating only to the Jew. )

Eph 2:15-22 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

What did Paul mean when he stood before Agrippa and stated this;

Ac 26:7

Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Act 26:7-8 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. (8) Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

This is concerning the resurrection of the dead of which Christ became the first fruit.

1Co 15:12-14 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Paul was relating his hope of the resurrection. What do you say the “hope to come” for the 12 tribes is?

I am not certain why this scripture is being used concerning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is, in context, concerning the resurrection of the dead.

What was bound up in that "Hope to come" that Paul spoke of? Wasn't it the Promise and what is the fullness of the Promise? Can you receive Christ and not His Spirit?

How could Abraham receive something that hadn't yet come to pass? I know that your answer will be by faith and that is correct because that is how he obtained it, but scripture indicates that he saw the promise afar off and died having never received it. However, we are on the polar opposite side that Abraham was on.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest ninhao]

I did address it. You are out of context.

In the OT the Spirit came upon people, but God never indwelt anyone who was full of sin and dead in tresspasses. That person must die because their Blood is required for their sins. The only way that the Holy Spirit could be sent to indwell a believer in the NT was after the substitionary death and the subsequent ressurection of the Lord and His ascension to the Father.

In the NT, some disciples received the Holy spirit before the resurrection of our Lord.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

There instances in the OT where the Holy Spirit is said to be in believers.

1Pe 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Can you tell what you consider the hope of the 12 tribes is ? I did not see you answer this question in relation to indwelling of the Holy spirit.

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

[Guest ninhao]

What was bound up in that "Hope to come" that Paul spoke of? Wasn't it the Promise and what is the fullness of the Promise? Can you receive Christ and not His Spirit?

How could Abraham receive something that hadn't yet come to pass? I know that your answer will be by faith and that is correct because that is how he obtained it, but scripture indicates that he saw the promise afar off and died having never received it. However, we are on the polar opposite side that Abraham was on.

Peace,

Dave

The passage is specifically about the resurrection and so possibly my premise may also be allowed.

Act 26:7-8 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. (8) Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Yes Abraham did look forward to the promises.