King Saul's possession

[Matthitjah]

I didn't miss anything. I stated that everyone must be born again to see the Kingdom of heaven. Never said that it was a NT exclusive Doctrine. What I've been stating is that they, OT Saint's, obtained it but didn't receive it.

Ok. I was not fully clear my apology.

Jesus said that to be born again meant to be born of the Holy Spirit

Joh 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

If OT Saints were born again they had the Holy Spirit.

If they were born again it was by the will of God.

I think that you are also hung up on the difference between in and indwelt. If the Spirit of Christ was in someone so that they could prophesy it doesn't necessarily mean that they were indwelt.

Indwelt siginify's taking up residence.

No, the OT Saints did not receive the Holy Spirit by being Indwelt as we do. We are receiving Christ Himself. The OT Saint's were promised this and obatined it by Faith, but never received it. They couldn't because the Promise was afar off and had not yet been fulfilled. Just like the Ressurection of the Just that you keep bringing up. We are promised this but have yet to receive it. We see it afar off which leads us within the Body to see through a looking glass darkly.This is why we have many theories about how it will happen pre, mid, or post tribulation.

[Guest ninhao]

If they were born again it was by the will of God.

I think that you are also hung up on the difference between in and indwelt. If the Spirit of Christ was in someone so that they could prophesy it doesn't necessarily mean that they were indwelt.

Indwelt siginify's taking up residence.

No, the OT Saints did not receive the Holy Spirit by being Indwelt as we do. We are receiving Christ Himself. The OT Saint's were promised this and obatined it by Faith, but never received it. They couldn't because the Promise was afar off and had not yet been fulfilled. Just like the Ressurection of the Just that you keep bringing up. We are promised this but have yet to receive it. We see it afar off which leads us within the Body to see through a looking glass darkly.This is why we have many theories about how it will happen pre, mid, or post tribulation.

The problem becomes Matthitjah, that Jesus said to be born again was also to be born of the Holy spirit. This is identical for all believers and not exclusive to the NT. The promise was, in part, blessing to ALL families ( salvation came to the gentiles etc) and hence the resurrection blessing came to ALL families. Suggesting this implies Abraham was not indwelt is incorrect.

I think we should revisit the promise to Abraham to check what it was because you appear to say it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for the first time for all believers, which was promised. While indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a consequence of belief I will readmit a portion post #30 to explain why this does not negate the Holy spirit indwelling Abraham.

Gen 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

"and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

I assume this part of God's promises to Abraham is concerning the coming Messiah. Let us look closely at this promise and what it entails.

" and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" . Interesting that this promise is something which will be given to all families of the earth "in" Abraham. This to me implies that the blessing will come about because the blesser, Christ Jesus, will come from the lineage of Abraham.

The implications from the blessing God endowed upon all families of the earth "in" Abraham are

1. Jesus came from Abraham's lineage

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

....

Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

2. All people would receive this blessing and not only direct descendant of Abraham. All who have faith become heirs to the promise given to Abraham.

Rom 4:16-18 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

So far the promise does not imply the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not available to Abraham but that the indwelling of the Holy spirit would become available to all who have faith.

It seems this is about salvation going out to all the world.

Gal 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We haven't received the resurrection as yet, in the same manner as the OT Saints, but we have seen it ratified through Christ. This is the only difference concerning the promised resurrection and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit ONLY being available to NT believers.

I am still a little confused and if you have answered this question already disregard it.

Do you say the OT Saints ever received the Holy spirit and if so when ?

[Matthitjah]

If they were born again it was by the will of God.

I think that you are also hung up on the difference between in and indwelt. If the Spirit of Christ was in someone so that they could prophesy it doesn't necessarily mean that they were indwelt.

Indwelt siginify's taking up residence.

No, the OT Saints did not receive the Holy Spirit by being Indwelt as we do. We are receiving Christ Himself. The OT Saint's were promised this and obatined it by Faith, but never received it. They couldn't because the Promise was afar off and had not yet been fulfilled. Just like the Ressurection of the Just that you keep bringing up. We are promised this but have yet to receive it. We see it afar off which leads us within the Body to see through a looking glass darkly.This is why we have many theories about how it will happen pre, mid, or post tribulation.

The problem becomes Matthitjah, that Jesus said to be born again was also to be born of the Holy spirit. This is identical for all believers and not exclusive to the NT. The promise was, in part, blessing to ALL families ( salvation came to the gentiles etc) and hence the resurrection blessing came to ALL families. Suggesting this implies Abraham was not indwelt is incorrect.

I think we should revisit the promise to Abraham to check what it was because you appear to say it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for the first time for all believers, which was promised. While indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a consequence of belief I will readmit a portion post #30 to explain why this does not negate the Holy spirit indwelling Abraham.

Gen 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

"and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

I assume this part of God's promises to Abraham is concerning the coming Messiah. Let us look closely at this promise and what it entails.

" and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" . Interesting that this promise is something which will be given to all families of the earth "in" Abraham. This to me implies that the blessing will come about because the blesser, Christ Jesus, will come from the lineage of Abraham.

The implications from the blessing God endowed upon all families of the earth "in" Abraham are

1. Jesus came from Abraham's lineage

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

....

Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

2. All people would receive this blessing and not only direct descendant of Abraham. All who have faith become heirs to the promise given to Abraham.

Rom 4:16-18 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

So far the promise does not imply the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not available to Abraham but that the indwelling of the Holy spirit would become available to all who have faith.

It seems this is about salvation going out to all the world.

Gal 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We haven't received the resurrection as yet, in the same manner as the OT Saints, but we have seen it ratified through Christ. This is the only difference concerning the promised resurrection and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit ONLY being available to NT believers.

I am still a little confused and if you have answered this question already disregard it.

Do you say the OT Saints ever received the Holy spirit and if so when ?

There is no problem and I didn't say that the Promise was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I said the Promise was a Blessing so that we can be a Blessing. (Blessed to be a Blessing) That Blessing is Messiah Jesus who came through the seed of Abraham. When you receive Messiah Jesus you receive all of Him to include His Spirit. It's not that hard to process. The problem really is your own understanding. The OT Saints could not receive someone who had not yet been Incarnated. Yet, the Promise was Good and God followed through thus they were Saved, not by their Religious practice that spoke of the Messiah, but by their Faith in God and His promised Blessing.

The OT Saints did not and could not receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit although He most certainly could have come upon them in Great Power and come out through them to Prophesy. They merely had to be willing.

I have a question for you.

If the OT Saints received Christ Jesus (and His Spirit) as you maintain, why was it necessary to go forth and sacrifice sin offerings?

I maintain that they obtained Salvation by Faith but never received the Promise.

[Guest ninhao]

There is no problem and I didn't say that the Promise was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I said the Promise was a Blessing so that we can be a Blessing. (Blessed to be a Blessing) That Blessing is Messiah Jesus who came through the seed of Abraham. When you receive Messiah Jesus you receive all of Him to include His Spirit. It's not that hard to process. The problem really is your own understanding. The OT Saints could not receive someone who had not yet been Incarnated. Yet, the Promise was Good and God followed through thus they were Saved, not by their Religious practice that spoke of the Messiah, but by their Faith in God and His promised Blessing.

The OT Saints did not and could not receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit although He most certainly could have come upon them in Great Power and come out through them to Prophesy. They merely had to be willing.

I have a question for you.

If the OT Saints received Christ Jesus (and His Spirit) as you maintain, why was it necessary to go forth and sacrifice sin offerings?

I maintain that they obtained Salvation by Faith but never received the Promise.

You have extrapolated the intention, and mean of the promised blessing we received IN Abraham and I would like you to demonstrate, using scripture, how it negates the indwelling of the Holy spirit in OT Saints. The promise was that all families would be blessed IN Abraham. How do you get this means Abraham was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

To be clear, and forgive me if this is repetitive, do you say the OT Saints ever received the Holy Spirit, as stated by Jesus to Nicodemus, and if so when. To now I think you are saying they did receive the Holy Spirit but were not indwelt.

The shadows and types of Christ are resplendent throughout the OT as you know. They pointed clearly to the coming Christ and the resurrection and glorification. The sin offerings pointed to Christ, of course.

This is well described in Hebrews 10.

Heb 10:4-6 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

To be clear I am not saying the Saints received Christ as you think. They received the promise of the resurrection, the same promise we have, and looked forward ( and knowingly prophesied ) concerning this. The only difference between us and them is that we look backwards to Christs coming while they looked forwards. The implications of the resurrection are the same for both of us.

[Matthitjah]

There is no problem and I didn't say that the Promise was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I said the Promise was a Blessing so that we can be a Blessing. (Blessed to be a Blessing) That Blessing is Messiah Jesus who came through the seed of Abraham. When you receive Messiah Jesus you receive all of Him to include His Spirit. It's not that hard to process. The problem really is your own understanding. The OT Saints could not receive someone who had not yet been Incarnated. Yet, the Promise was Good and God followed through thus they were Saved, not by their Religious practice that spoke of the Messiah, but by their Faith in God and His promised Blessing.

The OT Saints did not and could not receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit although He most certainly could have come upon them in Great Power and come out through them to Prophesy. They merely had to be willing.

I have a question for you.

If the OT Saints received Christ Jesus (and His Spirit) as you maintain, why was it necessary to go forth and sacrifice sin offerings?

I maintain that they obtained Salvation by Faith but never received the Promise.

You have extrapolated the intention, and mean of the promised blessing we received IN Abraham and I would like you to demonstrate, using scripture, how it negates the indwelling of the Holy spirit in OT Saints. The promise was that all families would be blessed IN Abraham. How do you get this means Abraham was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

To be clear, and forgive me if this is repetitive, do you say the OT Saints ever received the Holy Spirit, as stated by Jesus to Nicodemus, and if so when. To now I think you are saying they did receive the Holy Spirit but were not indwelt.

The shadows and types of Christ are resplendent throughout the OT as you know. They pointed clearly to the coming Christ and the resurrection and glorification. The sin offerings pointed to Christ, of course.

This is well described in Hebrews 10.

Heb 10:4-6 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

To be clear I am not saying the Saints received Christ as you think. They received the promise of the resurrection, the same promise we have, and looked forward ( and knowingly prophesied ) concerning this. The only difference between us and them is that we look backwards to Christs coming while they looked forwards. The implications of the resurrection are the same for both of us.

I've already demonstrated what you've asked for several times. What Abraham received was Promise on the Salvation and all the subsequent blessing of the Promise like the Holy Spirit that follow.

Jesus never stated to Nicodemus anything about the Promised Holy Spirit or the OT Saints (to be clear that is what you are stating). He told Nicodemus that he had to be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

The shadows and types of Christ are resplendent throughout the OT as you know. They pointed clearly to the coming Christ and the resurrection and glorification. The sin offerings pointed to Christ, of course.

Great answer! Then why don't you and I continue to practice them while the OT saints were required to? is there a difference between they and I (not in standing mind you because we all stand by Faith through Grace) ? If so, what is this difference?

If they received the implications of the Ressurection why does scripture indicate that they did not receive the promise? They all died looking forward and were afar off. That is what scripture states. They died in faith. That is unless you have some other understanding of Hebrews 11 that I don't?

Heb 11:39

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

I know that you believe that the Ressurection is the promise but the fact is that you and I haven't received it yet either. So what is the Promise? I don't think it's the Resuurection at all but the God/man Himself, Jesus Christ, and all that pertains to Him which includes the Holy Spirit. You can't have the Father and the Son apart from the Holy Spirit. He is a part of the package.

The Holy Spirit was not sent by the Father until after the ascension. The problem that you have is in placing temporal Abraham in a time after the Ascension.

[Guest ninhao]

I've already demonstrated what you've asked for several times. What Abraham received was Promise on the Salvation and all the subsequent blessing of the Promise like the Holy Spirit that follow.

The promise ( that in Abraham ALL families would be blessed ) was pointing towards the time in which salvation would become available to ALL peoples on the Earth. Abraham already had assurance of Salvation through his faith, as you have stated, and so the blessing IN him going to the world was simply the unification in Christ of ALL peoples.

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We are still waiting for the promise to be executed at the resurrection, in the same fashion as Abraham is. Are you suggesting we have received the execution of the promise already ?

Jesus never stated to Nicodemus anything about the Promised Holy Spirit or the OT Saints (to be clear that is what you are stating). He told Nicodemus that he had to be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

Jesus not only told Nicodemus ( and expected him to know this ) that no one could enter the Kingdom without being born again, He also told Nicodemus what this meant.

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Being born of the Holy Spirit necessarily implies indwelling and thus the OT Saints must have been indwelled. I understand some suggest this indwelling did not happen until after Jesus was glorified but there is no doubt ALL Saints must be born of the Holy Spirit ( indwelt ). There is no other way.

Great answer! Then why don't you and I continue to practice them while the OT saints were required to? is there a difference between they and I (not in standing mind you because we all stand by Faith through Grace) ? If so, what is this difference?

The sacrifices were no longer relevant after the one time forever sacrifice of Christ occurred. The OT Saints performed their ritual sacrifices knowing they pointed to Christ. What is your point here ?

There is absolutely no difference in your method of salvation and theirs. They are exactly the same.

Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

If they received the implications of the Ressurection why does scripture indicate that they did not receive the promise? They all died looking forward and were afar off. That is what scripture states. They died in faith. That is unless you have some other understanding of Hebrews 11 that I don't?

Heb 11:39

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

The OT Saints had not received the promised resurrection and neither have we. What we have received is the guarantee through Christ being the first fruits.

Act 26:22-23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Can you demonstrate that we have received the promise ? Please if you answer post the scripture followed by detailed commentary.

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This indicates we will receive the promise in unison with the OT Saints don't you think ?

I know that you believe that the Ressurection is the promise but the fact is that you and I haven't received it yet either. So what is the Promise? I don't think it's the Resuurection at all but the God/man Himself, Jesus Christ, and all that pertains to Him which includes the Holy Spirit. You can't have the Father and the Son apart from the Holy Spirit. He is a part of the package.

The Holy Spirit was not sent by the Father until after the ascension. The problem that you have is in placing temporal Abraham in a time after the Ascension.

Ok you suggest Jesus Himself was the promise. Even though the promise was fulfilled, and will be executed by Christ, it wasn't Him.

Can you demonstrate this premise ?

The scriptures pertaining to the Holy Spirit being sent after the ascension do not imply the Holy Spirit was not active before then at all. These scriptures are pointing to the more effusive activity of the Holy Spirit. This is understandable considering the promise given to ALL families.

[Matthitjah]

I've already demonstrated what you've asked for several times. What Abraham received was Promise on the Salvation and all the subsequent blessing of the Promise like the Holy Spirit that follow.

The promise ( that in Abraham ALL families would be blessed ) was pointing towards the time in which salvation would become available to ALL peoples on the Earth. Abraham already had assurance of Salvation through his faith, as you have stated, and so the blessing IN him going to the world was simply the unification in Christ of ALL peoples.

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We are still waiting for the promise to be executed at the resurrection, in the same fashion as Abraham is. Are you suggesting we have received the execution of the promise already ?

Jesus never stated to Nicodemus anything about the Promised Holy Spirit or the OT Saints (to be clear that is what you are stating). He told Nicodemus that he had to be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

Jesus not only told Nicodemus ( and expected him to know this ) that no one could enter the Kingdom without being born again, He also told Nicodemus what this meant.

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Being born of the Holy Spirit necessarily implies indwelling and thus the OT Saints must have been indwelled. I understand some suggest this indwelling did not happen until after Jesus was glorified but there is no doubt ALL Saints must be born of the Holy Spirit ( indwelt ). There is no other way.

Great answer! Then why don't you and I continue to practice them while the OT saints were required to? is there a difference between they and I (not in standing mind you because we all stand by Faith through Grace) ? If so, what is this difference?

The sacrifices were no longer relevant after the one time forever sacrifice of Christ occurred. The OT Saints performed their ritual sacrifices knowing they pointed to Christ. What is your point here ?

There is absolutely no difference in your method of salvation and theirs. They are exactly the same.

Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

If they received the implications of the Ressurection why does scripture indicate that they did not receive the promise? They all died looking forward and were afar off. That is what scripture states. They died in faith. That is unless you have some other understanding of Hebrews 11 that I don't?

Heb 11:39

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

The OT Saints had not received the promised resurrection and neither have we. What we have received is the guarantee through Christ being the first fruits.

Act 26:22-23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Can you demonstrate that we have received the promise ? Please if you answer post the scripture followed by detailed commentary.

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This indicates we will receive the promise in unison with the OT Saints don't you think ?

I know that you believe that the Ressurection is the promise but the fact is that you and I haven't received it yet either. So what is the Promise? I don't think it's the Resuurection at all but the God/man Himself, Jesus Christ, and all that pertains to Him which includes the Holy Spirit. You can't have the Father and the Son apart from the Holy Spirit. He is a part of the package.

The Holy Spirit was not sent by the Father until after the ascension. The problem that you have is in placing temporal Abraham in a time after the Ascension.

Ok you suggest Jesus Himself was the promise. Even though the promise was fulfilled, and will be executed by Christ, it wasn't Him.

Can you demonstrate this premise ?

The scriptures pertaining to the Holy Spirit being sent after the ascension do not imply the Holy Spirit was not active before then at all. These scriptures are pointing to the more effusive activity of the Holy Spirit. This is understandable considering the promise given to ALL families.

So the OT Saint's were actively practicing dead rituals with no purpose?

Scripture indicates that they had to do this as a propitiation and in faith until the promise had come.

Let's look at something;

Ga 4:4

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Eph 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

They were made a promise;

Mic 4:1

¶ But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Mic 4:2

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mal 3:1

¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold, he shall come, says the LORD of hosts.

Who was coming?

Was it Ressurection?

What was to be established?

Was it Ressurection?

I think you need to shift your focus. It's why your vision is skewed and you can't come to terms with the Promise.

Paul spoke to Agrippa of the Promise of the Fathers or Patriarches which now he preached.

Hebrews indicates that the Fathers or Patriarches obtained this Promise but never received it.

Ephesians tells us that there was a dispensation and a fullness of times and that Christ would gather all into one and fulfill the Promise.

Galatians talks about the fullness of times and the Son being sent. Ressurection wasn't being sent. The Son was beacuse in Him is tied up all of the Promised Blessing to include ressurection. He would establish the Kingdom, he would fulfill the Law, He would Save our souls.

What came with Him was all the Blessing and this includes the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ.

The OT Saints had to carry on the sacrifices and the ordinances until He came because He fulfilled them all. We do not because we are indwelt with the fulfillment of them all.

You still have the problem of placing temporal Abraham in time somewhere after all of this was fulfilled so that he might be indwelt. For God time is not a problem but it is for you and I. That is why there was a future promise that these Saints laid hold of by Faith obtainining it but never receiving it.

You should read and reread this thread and my replies because I have said nothing different from the beginning and you are just not grasping it. You keep asking the same questions over and over again and there's nothing else left to be said on my end.

May the Lord Bless your understanding.

[Guest ninhao]

So the OT Saint's were actively practicing dead rituals with no purpose?

Scripture indicates that they had to do this as a propitiation and in faith until the promise had come.

Can you post a scripture that supports this premise. Maybe you mean the rituals made them ceremonially clean but certainly not redeemed from the sin. These rituals did not provide propitiation only one sacrifice could.

Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The rituals were practiced as types of the real thing which we know what that is.

Let's look at something;

Ga 4:4

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Eph 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

They were made a promise;

Mic 4:1

¶ But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Mic 4:2

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mal 3:1

¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold, he shall come, says the LORD of hosts.

Are you attempting to use the above scriptures as likeness for the promise made to Abraham? I don't understand your point. There are many scriptures announcing the arrival of Christ yes.

Who was coming?

Was it Ressurection?

What was to be established?

Was it Ressurection?

I think you need to shift your focus. It's why your vision is skewed and you can't come to terms with the Promise.

Christ was coming and would, by rising from the grave ( resurrection ) lead the charge for the resurrection of the Saints. The promise was the resurrection and we know, of course, this comes by Christ. I think you are making things complicated for the purpose of adhering to a dogmatic doctrine.

Paul spoke to Agrippa of the Promise of the Fathers or Patriarches which now he preached.

Hebrews indicates that the Fathers or Patriarches obtained this Promise but never received it.

Ephesians tells us that there was a dispensation and a fullness of times and that Christ would gather all into one and fulfill the Promise.

Galatians talks about the fullness of times and the Son being sent. Ressurection wasn't being sent. The Son was beacuse in Him is tied up all of the Promised Blessing to include ressurection. He would establish the Kingdom, he would fulfill the Law, He would Save our souls.

The resurrection of the Saints would not be possible until Lord Jesus Himself died and rose from the dead. The promise is that we all can be resurrected now because of this. So technically yes, resurrection was "sent", if you like.

Resurrection is the hope OT saints had and which was fulfilled ( made possible ) by Lord Jesus and this is the hope they, and we, look forward to.

What came with Him was all the Blessing and this includes the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ.

The holy spirit was already blessing the Saints before Christ came.

1Pe_1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The OT Saints had to carry on the sacrifices and the ordinances until He came because He fulfilled them all. We do not because we are indwelt with the fulfillment of them all.

Yes the OT Saints performed the ritual sacrifices. Do you suggest this is what saved them ?

You still have the problem of placing temporal Abraham in time somewhere after all of this was fulfilled so that he might be indwelt. For God time is not a problem but it is for you and I. That is why there was a future promise that these Saints laid hold of by Faith obtainining it but never receiving it.

I'm not sure why you insist on this temporal time investigation because it has no relevancy to my premise. Abraham was indwelt with the Holy Spirit and this was not what he was waiting for. The thing the Abraham had not attained was the resurrection and we can see this in Hebrews 11. .

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We are all made perfect at the resurrection, together.

You should read and reread this thread and my replies because I have said nothing different from the beginning and you are just not grasping it. You keep asking the same questions over and over again and there's nothing else left to be said on my end.

May the Lord Bless your understanding.

I understand why you cling to the dogmatic dispensation position and know it is taught in most theology schools. You would do well to look beyond this and notice the complicated trail of mixed messages it holds. Maybe you can borrow Occam's razor.

Thank you for the good spirited discussion I appreciate your input Brother Matthitjah.

[Matthitjah]

God Bless you brother.

I understand why you cling to the dogmatic dispensation position and know it is taught in most theology schools. You would do well to look beyond this and notice the complicated trail of mixed messages it holds. Maybe you can borrow Occam's razor.

Thank you for the good spirited discussion I appreciate your input Brother Matthitjah.

You're welcome. I would add one last thing to your attack on Theology. I'm not certain why Theology takes such a broad side hit in Christian circles. 1st and 2nd Peter are both Theological in their nature so too the book of 1st John. In fact when Paul offers correction in some of his letters he is practicing Theology. The Apostles Creed is Theology openly practiced in a large portion of our Churches,

Theology is a safe guard for us. It teaches the basic tenants of our Faith and it's purpose originally was to outline those basic tenants before the Word was compiled. In fact Moses writing down the Pentateuch was in fact Theology.

Like anything it's practice out of balance and to the extreme leads to trouble. However, it's proper practice keeps us on the straight and narrow path.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest ninhao]

God Bless you brother.

I understand why you cling to the dogmatic dispensation position and know it is taught in most theology schools. You would do well to look beyond this and notice the complicated trail of mixed messages it holds. Maybe you can borrow Occam's razor.

Thank you for the good spirited discussion I appreciate your input Brother Matthitjah.

You're welcome. I would add one last thing to your attack on Theology. I'm not certain why Theology takes such a broad side hit in Christian circles. 1st and 2nd Peter are both Theological in their nature so too the book of 1st John. In fact when Paul offers correction in some of his letters he is practicing Theology. The Apostles Creed is Theology openly practiced in a large portion of our Churches,

Theology is a safe guard for us. It teaches the basic tenants of our Faith and it's purpose originally was to outline those basic tenants before the Word was compiled. In fact Moses writing down the Pentateuch was in fact Theology.

Like anything it's practice out of balance and to the extreme leads to trouble. However, it's proper practice keeps us on the straight and narrow path.

Peace,

Dave

Oh dear.

My attack is not upon theology please don't misunderstand me. My attack is upon an incorrect doctrine, of which the one you have been supporting is. It is taught in most theology schools.

Theology is vitally important as you say and we shall all be as the Bereans.