Born of Water and Spirit by Jack Kelly

[Littlelambseativy]

GE you are still backing up with references that are under the Law. Jesus freed us from the Law at His death and resurrection does He not say that John the Baptist baptizes with water but the Holy Spirit baptizes with power from on high.

[Guest man]

GE you are still backing up with references that are under the Law. Jesus freed us from the Law at His death and resurrectiondoes He not say that John the Baptist baptizes with water but the Holy Spirit baptizes with power from on high.

Jesus made this statement after His death and resurrection.

Matthew 28

¹⁸ And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

²⁰ teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

[GoldenEagle]

GE you are still backing up with references that are under the Law. Jesus freed us from the Law at His death and resurrection does He not say that John the Baptist baptizes with water but the Holy Spirit baptizes with power from on high.

How do you figure those references are under the Law? Curious. It's the Biblical (all 4 Gospel) account of how Jesus was baptized.

So I'm going to take it that you don't agree that Jesus was baptized through imersion in the Jordan River by John?

For clarification I'm talking about the physical nature of baptism. The spiritual nature of baptism is that it symbolizes the death, burial, and resurection with Christ.

I’d like to highlight verses 3, 4, and 11 in the 6th chapter of Romans. We as Believers were baptized into His death. We were immersed into water to show a picture of our death and becoming a new creature in Christ. Do you agree?

Romans 6:1-13

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

¹ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? ² Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? ³ Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ⁴ Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

⁵ For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, ⁶ knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. ⁷ For he who has died has been freed from sin. ⁸ Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, ⁹ knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. ¹⁰ For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. ¹¹ Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

¹² Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. ¹³ And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. ¹⁴ For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Also check out this passage in Colossians 2. In particular I’d like to highlight verses 11 and 12. Baptism is a symbol of being dead to the flesh and is the new outward evidence of God’s change in our lives (replacing circumcision). Would you agree?

Colossians 2:11:15

¹¹ In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, ¹² buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. ¹³ And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, ¹⁴ having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. ¹⁵ Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

The point here is to set a precedent. But if we can't agree on how our Lord was baptized then perhaps further discussion may not be profitable very profitable.

God bless,

GE

[Littlelambseativy]

If in the OT a form of baptism was a priest using hyssop dipped in water or the blood of bulls or goats and sprinkled on the people was sufficient to cleans the people. Why is not the blood of the Lamb of God not sufficient to cleans us?

If in the immersion process ( and who is to say that Jesus did not stand in the Jordan and John scooped up water and poured water on the head of Jesus) any part of the body is not immersed does that mean mean that the person is not baptized? What happens to a person who is terrified of drowning does that mean they cannot be sprinkled as in the OT or have water poured on the head ?

It is such a dogmatic thing with the baptists that it is not proper and the denomination which does not do the immersion is not worth the time to even enter the doors no matter that the gospel is preached - they throw out all with the water.

Just a personal grievance against the insistence of one way or damnation for all who do not believe their way. I admit I do not adhere that immersion is necessary but rather the cleansing of the blood of Jesus is all in all. As I said and probably the various churches began with the apostles viewing some of the dogma differently yet all were founded in the Salvation through the cleansing through the blood of Jesus. However born of water at birth absolutely in full agreement with JK.

[enoob57]

If in the OT a form of baptism was a priest using hyssop dipped in water or the blood of bulls or goats and sprinkled on the people was sufficient to cleans the people. Why is not the blood of the Lamb of God not sufficient to cleans us?

The OT law and practice was not set forth to save Heb 10:1-4 but to educate the need- For God- to do for man what man could not do for himself! So my question- why are you here justifying a system which was not put in place to make man just?

If in the immersion process ( and who is to say that Jesus did not stand in the Jordan and John scooped up water and poured water on the head of Jesus) any part of the body is not immersed does that mean mean that the person is not baptized? What happens to a person who is terrified of drowning does that mean they cannot be sprinkled as in the OT or have water poured on the head ?

A simple thing called The Word of God and the greek language

this denotes something other than standing in water....

also one must ask themselves why this requirement where John was baptizing if sprinkling Jn 3:23

It is such a dogmatic thing with the baptists that it is not proper and the denomination which does not do the immersion is not worth the time to even enter the doors no matter that the gospel is preached - they throw out all with the water.

Just a personal grievance against the insistence of one way or damnation for all who do not believe their way. I admit I do not adhere that immersion is necessary but rather the cleansing of the blood of Jesus is all in all. As I said and probably the various churches began with the apostles viewing some of the dogma differently yet all were founded in the Salvation through the cleansing through the blood of Jesus. However born of water at birth absolutely in full agreement with JK.

You need to quit worry about what man thinks and worry what God 'IS' really saying and teaching! Love, Steven

[GoldenEagle]

If in the OT a form of baptism was a priest using hyssop dipped in water or the blood of bulls or goats and sprinkled on the people was sufficient to cleans the people. Why is not the blood of the Lamb of God not sufficient to cleans us?

If in the immersion process ( A. and who is to say that Jesus did not stand in the Jordan and John scooped up water and poured water on the head of Jesus) B. any part of the body is not immersed does that mean mean that the person is not baptized?

A. Did you read post #52? There is no evidence that Jesus stood at the Jordan and John scooped up water and poured water on the head of Jesus. In fact the opposite is true as there are two Biblical accounts where Jesus "went up from the water" (Matt. 3:16) or "came out of the water" (Mark 1:10). If one comes up one must have been IN the water. If one went up one must have been IN the water to begin with. Do you agree?

Matt. 3:16

¹⁶ And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;

Mark 1:10

¹⁰ And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

B. Baptism doesn't save. Only faith in Jesus Christ saves. It is a free free gift of God through faith not works. (Eph. 2:8-9) So if a part of the body isn't immersed (I'm not sure how that would happen) it still counts as a baptism. Baptism is just a picture in an outward, physical way of a spiritual truth - death to self, being buried with Christ, and being raised from the dead in Christ. Do you agree?

Eph. 2:8-9

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

It is such a dogmatic thing with the baptists that it is not proper and the denomination which does not do the immersion is not worth the time to even enter the doors no matter that the gospel is preached - they throw out all with the water.

Just a personal grievance against the insistence of one way or damnation for all who do not believe their way. I admit I do not adhere that immersion is necessary but rather the cleansing of the blood of Jesus is all in all. As I said and probably the various churches began with the apostles viewing some of the dogma differently yet all were founded in the Salvation through the cleansing through the blood of Jesus. However born of water at birth absolutely in full agreement with JK.

You are speaking in general terms and quantifying all baptists (general sense of the term) as thinking other Christians who view this differently as not worth it... Nobody is saying on this thread that there is damnation for sprinkling, pouring, or infant baptism. Again IMO I think you're projecting based on your previous bad experience with certain people who lacked grace. The form of baptism doesn't make one Christian superior to another.

Yet there is Biblical evidence for immersion and little (if any, still waiting on references) for sprinkling, pouring, etc.

But continuing the discussion we've talked about Jesus's baptism that was through immersion. Baptism through immersion IMO has further Scriptural backing.

Acts 2:38,41,47

³⁸ And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

⁴¹ So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

⁴⁷ praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

To understand what Phillip did we read Acts 8 verses 36-39 as understanding that Phillip baptized both men and women through immersion.

Acts 8:12-13

¹² But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ¹³ Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

A clear passage that points to immersion baptism is that of Phillip and the eunuch. The eunuch came up out of the water. If he came up he must have been IN the water. This is the same baptism that Jesus partook in with John.

Acts 8:36-39

³⁶ And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”^{[a] 38} And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. ³⁹ And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

Footnotes:

1. Acts 8:36 Some manuscripts add all or most of verse 37: And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
   

Acts 9:18

And immediately something like scales fell from his {Saul who became Paul} eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;

Interesting side note in Acts 10 that the Holy Spirit was upon the Gentiles as they heard the word of God through Peter as evidence by speaking in tongues and extoling God BEFORE they were baptized.

Acts 10:47-48

⁴⁷ “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” ⁴⁸ And he {Peter} commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

From acts 19 we can understand that Paul understood baptism to be by immersion as set forth by John the Baptizer… So it can be inferred that the Lydia and her household in Acts 16 were baptized by immersion.

Acts 16:15

¹⁵ And after she {Lydia} was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

From acts 19 we can understand that Paul understood baptism to be by immersion as set forth by John the Baptizer… So it can be inferred that the Philippian Jailor and his family in Acts 16 were baptized by immersion.

Acts 16:33,34

³³ And he {the Philippian Jailor) took them {Paul and Silas} the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. ³⁴ Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

From acts 19 we can understand that Paul understood baptism to be by immersion as set forth by John the Baptizer… So it can be inferred that Crispus in Acts 18 and his household were baptized through immersion.

Acts 18:8

⁸ Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

Paul clearly indicates that the baptism he referred to was that of immersion through the example of John the Baptizer.

Acts 19:4-5

⁴ And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” ⁵ On hearing this, they {Ephesians} were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16

¹⁶ And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[Littlelambseativy]

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

And yes I have read ALL of your posts GE.

PS nowhere does it specify full immersion. They go in and out - walking in and walking out but not lying down into water. There was not that much in many places - you ignore that fact. But as the priest did see Heb 9:19-26 for the purifying or cleansing - it is all ceremonial even immersion.

[NeedYouLord]

Always praying for The Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into All Truth...In The Name of Jesus...

For me, instead of wondering, fussing etc. etc. I know I was fully immersed in water before I was born in the natural from my natural mother...Then later in faith I was fully baptised in water...fully immersed...and now I'm satisfied-that's the way it came to me to be done-through much prayer...have since been baptised in The Holy Spirit too...Real satisfied now...My my...anyway...This topic just caught my attention because I've started a new book by Andrew Murray, The Blood of The Cross...(This is in reference to the second quote below) So Indwelled he Was and Is...The Revelation That God Gave him Still Lives On...That is what amazes me...I can pick up one of his books (there are many) and Life Comes...to me...Whew...and He goes very very deep...it's like the deep calling the deep...

So naturally I got into my Bible and along with John 3:5...unless one is born of water and the Spirit...Acts 2:38 is referenced right here (Talks of Repenting and being baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ) This is also a really deep subject because I'm finding out that this verse is also true and goes with it: 1 John 5:6-8 [6] This is He who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. and it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Born Of Water And The Spirit

Q. I have a question on John 3:5, Jesus was talking about being born of water and of the Spirit. In my Tuesday night Bible study class a question came up asking what this meant. Someone said that Jesus was talking about water baptism but I don’t see that here. Am I way off? What was Jesus really saying in John 3:5?

A. Let’s put John 3:5 -6 together to get a clearer picture of what Jesus was saying:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Being born of water speaks of our first birth. It’s the natural one where we emerge from our birth waters, the amniotic fluid in which we’ve spent the previous nine months. It’s flesh (our mom) giving birth to flesh (us), when we become the child of our earthly parents.

Being born of the Spirit is the 2nd birth, the supernatural one, where our spirit is knit with God’s. It’s when we are born again, when Spirit gives birth to spirit, and we become a child of God (John 1:12-13).

If in the OT a form of baptism was a priest using hyssop dipped in water or the blood of bulls or goats and sprinkled on the people was sufficient to cleans the people. Why is not the blood of the Lamb of God not sufficient to cleans us?

If in the immersion process ( and who is to say that Jesus did not stand in the Jordan and John scooped up water and poured water on the head of Jesus) any part of the body is not immersed does that mean mean that the person is not baptized? What happens to a person who is terrified of drowning does that mean they cannot be sprinkled as in the OT or have water poured on the head ?

It is such a dogmatic thing with the baptists that it is not proper and the denomination which does not do the immersion is not worth the time to even enter the doors no matter that the gospel is preached - they throw out all with the water.

Just a personal grievance against the insistence of one way or damnation for all who do not believe their way. I admit I do not adhere that immersion is necessary but rather the cleansing of the blood of Jesus is all in all. As I said and probably the various churches began with the apostles viewing some of the dogma differently yet all were founded in the Salvation through the cleansing through the blood of Jesus. However born of water at birth absolutely in full agreement with JK.

This comment goes right in line with the book I'm reading by Andrew Murray...because his insight is that The Blood and The Spirit are inseparable in The Power of God...going back to 1 John 5:8...

Well we know in part and I'm just starting this book...and it is deep...Whew...I love it when this happens...just in the interim until my mind is renewed again...Hahaha...I have to be baptised in water for anything to happen to me and in me...

[Guest man]

Are you saying that natural birth takes the place of immersion baptism?

1 am saying that it is a sacrament like Christening or dedication or infant baptism. Is it necessary -no- but the acceptance of Jesus sacrifice for our sin and the infilling of the Holy Spirit now that we are not under the law is all sufficient. Water immersion is a sacrament - am I not correct? Just the same as a wedding, communion or infant baptism ?

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

Do you realize you're teaching that all mentions of baptism in the Word can be ignored? If natural childbirth takes the place of immersion baptism, that would mean that God forces baptism on everyone. It also means that every mention of baptism, other than baptism of the Holy Spirit, is redundant. They're just empty words and phrases that mean absolutely nothing. You're taking away and adding things to the bible to suit your own belief's. Jesus was baptised and regardless if it was full immersion or just a sprinkling, you're saying it isn't necessary because we were all baptised at birth. Your own belief that sprinkling is all that is needed is also redundant if natural childbirth takes the place of full immersion baptism.

You're teaching something here that isn't biblical.