Are the Dead...?

[missmuffet]

The dead are fully conscience but they do not have a substance now.They can fully recognize each other.They are awaiting their resurrected bodies.

[enoob57]

conscious with reasoning

Lk 16:22-31

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he

cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool

my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good

things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us

and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he

may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets;

let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he

said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

NKJV

[Guest shiloh357]

The rich man and Lazarus were fully conscious and able to communicate. Abraham is dead yet spoke to rich man and comforted the beggar, Lazarus. The rich man begged for this brothers to be warned about hell. So according to Jesus, after death we are fully conscious.

In the book of Revelvation, those martyred for their testimony cried out to God for their blood to be avenged.

God said, I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He did not say I was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Meaning that all three are still alive and awake.

[gnomonist]

I believe they are sleeping, as I don't believe in disecting the "soul" from the body but are in effect the same thing. It's like a computer. Hardware, software and power to run it. Cut off any of these things and the computer dies.

Besides the numerous references so far about sleeping, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing. It's like before you were born. You never knew you were a person, you never knew there was sunshine, you never knew you were a father or mother.... nothing! The reason they know nothing is because awareness presupposes knowledge. So, by knowing nothing, is in effect saying unconscious.

Now to list and address some of the protests to sleeping:

1) The spirit of Samuel came to Saul. Probably was a demon assuming Samuel's form. We cannot prove it was Samuel. For sure, up to Christ's time, he stated no man has ever ascended to heaven. This is why conjuring was forbidden in the OT, so why would God allow something unlawful to come to pass? Saul already knew the prophecy of Samuel but wanted to hear his slant on things coming from Samuel (the way we hope parents will change their minds and allow us to do the things we were told not to). Since God already gave up on Saul, he turned him over to an evil spirit. That's what conjuring brings up, evil spirits, which is why it was forbidden.

2) After the fifth seal was opened, the souls of those under the altar cry out. That's symbolic the way Abel's blood cried from the ground. Seriously, does anyone here think souls of dead people would be under the altar? That's a strange place for them to be, wouldn't you say?

3) The Rich man and Lazarus: That's a parable, a story that uses imagery or silimiles to compare to something else. Jesus himself stated parables were not to be taken literally, but rather he spoke in parables because:

"Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand"

and boy! all I can say is this parable is misunderstood! I know that because people are interpretting it literally.

4) The Transfiguration: This was a vision of the end times and does not need Moses and Elijah to be alive for this to happen. As a matter of fact, since the resurrection did not occur yet, Moses and Elijah were very much dead and as previously pointed out, no man has ever ascended to heaven.

Reason this out. For a soul to be conscious supposes one is in a spiritual body, but Paul made it clear that in the resurrection the believer would be raised a spirit. So.... we get two spirits? The doctrine of consciousness after death comes from the immortal soul doctrine which the bible does not teach. On the contrary, the soul that sins will die.

[enoob57]

I believe they are sleeping, as I don't believe in disecting the "soul" from the body but are in effect the same thing. It's like a computer. Hardware, software and power to run it. Cut off any of these things and the computer dies.

Besides the numerous references so far about sleeping, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing. It's like before you were born. You never knew you were a person, you never knew there was sunshine, you never knew you were a father or mother.... nothing! The reason they know nothing is because awareness presupposes knowledge. So, by knowing nothing, is in effect saying unconscious.

Now to list and address some of the protests to sleeping:

1) The spirit of Samuel came to Saul. Probably was a demon assuming Samuel's form. We cannot prove it was Samuel. For sure, up to Christ's time, he stated no man has ever ascended to heaven. This is why conjuring was forbidden in the OT, so why would God allow something unlawful to come to pass? Saul already knew the prophecy of Samuel but wanted to hear his slant on things coming from Samuel (the way we hope parents will change their minds and allow us to do the things we were told not to). Since God already gave up on Saul, he turned him over to an evil spirit. That's what conjuring brings up, evil spirits, which is why it was forbidden. Seeing how Saul knew Samuel and recognized him as Samuel isn't enough for you as proof that it was him???

2) After the fifth seal was opened, the souls of those under the altar cry out. That's symbolic the way Abel's blood cried from the ground. Seriously, does anyone here think souls of dead people would be under the altar? That's a strange place for them to be, wouldn't you say? I suggest you build a good Theological Hermeneutic to foundation yourself in God's Word because your all over the place Here! 2Tim 2:15

3) The Rich man and Lazarus: That's a parable, a story that uses imagery or silimiles to compare to something else. Jesus himself stated parables were not to be taken literally, but rather he spoke in parables because: Jesus said parables were to represent truth... in this Jesus has them communicating, exspressing emotion, suffering, looking toward future event etc.... certainly not asleep!

"Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand"

and boy! all I can say is this parable is misunderstood! I know that because people are interpretting it literally.

4) The Transfiguration: This was a vision of the end times and does not need Moses and Elijah to be alive for this to happen. As a matter of fact, since the resurrection did not occur yet, Moses and Elijah were very much dead and as previously pointed out, no man has ever ascended to heaven. Right it was a mountain top on earth not Heaven and they came from the Paradise side of Hades!

Reason this out. For a soul to be conscious supposes one is in a spiritual body, but Paul made it clear that in the resurrection the believer would be raised a spirit. So.... we get two spirits? The doctrine of consciousness after death comes from the immortal soul doctrine which the bible does not teach. On the contrary, the soul that sins will die.

there is so much here violates the hermeneutic of Scripture! As God has said

2 Pe 1:19-21

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place,

until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture

is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as

they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

NKJV

This means what it means and when the simple truth appears seek no other truth for God hates itching ears

2 Ti 4:3-5

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because

they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth,

and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist,

fulfill your ministry.

NKJV

I suggest you get yourself around some Godly Bible Teachers and learn of the foundation God has given you! Love, Steven

[gnomonist]

I believe they are sleeping, as I don't believe in disecting the "soul" from the body but are in effect the same thing. It's like a computer. Hardware, software and power to run it. Cut off any of these things and the computer dies.

Besides the numerous references so far about sleeping, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing. It's like before you were born. You never knew you were a person, you never knew there was sunshine, you never knew you were a father or mother.... nothing! The reason they know nothing is because awareness presupposes knowledge. So, by knowing nothing, is in effect saying unconscious.

Now to list and address some of the protests to sleeping:

1) The spirit of Samuel came to Saul. Probably was a demon assuming Samuel's form. We cannot prove it was Samuel. For sure, up to Christ's time, he stated no man has ever ascended to heaven. This is why conjuring was forbidden in the OT, so why would God allow something unlawful to come to pass? Saul already knew the prophecy of Samuel but wanted to hear his slant on things coming from Samuel (the way we hope parents will change their minds and allow us to do the things we were told not to). Since God already gave up on Saul, he turned him over to an evil spirit. That's what conjuring brings up, evil spirits, which is why it was forbidden. Seeing how Saul knew Samuel and recognized him as Samuel isn't enough for you as proof that it was him???

2) After the fifth seal was opened, the souls of those under the altar cry out. That's symbolic the way Abel's blood cried from the ground. Seriously, does anyone here think souls of dead people would be under the altar? That's a strange place for them to be, wouldn't you say? I suggest you build a good Theological Hermeneutic to foundation yourself in God's Word because your all over the place Here! 2Tim 2:15

3) The Rich man and Lazarus: That's a parable, a story that uses imagery or silimiles to compare to something else. Jesus himself stated parables were not to be taken literally, but rather he spoke in parables because: Jesus said parables were to represent truth... in this Jesus has them communicating, exspressing emotion, suffering, looking toward future event etc.... certainly not asleep!

"Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand"

and boy! all I can say is this parable is misunderstood! I know that because people are interpretting it literally.

4) The Transfiguration: This was a vision of the end times and does not need Moses and Elijah to be alive for this to happen. As a matter of fact, since the resurrection did not occur yet, Moses and Elijah were very much dead and as previously pointed out, no man has ever ascended to heaven. Right it was a mountain top on earth not Heaven and they came from the Paradise side of Hades!

Reason this out. For a soul to be conscious supposes one is in a spiritual body, but Paul made it clear that in the resurrection the believer would be raised a spirit. So.... we get two spirits? The doctrine of consciousness after death comes from the immortal soul doctrine which the bible does not teach. On the contrary, the soul that sins will die.

there is so much here violates the hermeneutic of Scripture! As God has said

2 Pe 1:19-21

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place,

until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture

is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as

they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

NKJV

This means what it means and when the simple truth appears seek no other truth for God hates itching ears

2 Ti 4:3-5

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because

they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth,

and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist,

fulfill your ministry.

NKJV

I suggest you get yourself around some Godly Bible Teachers and learn of the foundation God has given you! Love, Steven

Greetings:

I think the whole thing hinges on an immortal soul doctrine. We have to be careful of things that crept into Christianity, as that is one doctrine, another is Hades based on Greek mythology.

You have not really addressed anything satisfactorly in the points I brought up. To state two examples, as for Saul identifying it as Samuel, that is not enough proof. People claim they see their loved one's ghosts after death all the time, but it's just that, a claim. Also, the Rich man and Lazarus story only shows your attempt to wanting to take it literally, the very thing I said one can't do.

I once believed as you do, but abandoned some of these ideas since they did not pass scriptural muster to me and upon learning the outside influences to Christianity over the years that the apostles would not have believed.

Blessings.

Edited May 28, 2013 by gnomonist

[enoob57]

Greetings:

I think the whole thing hinges on an immortal soul doctrine. We have to be careful of things that crept into Christianity, as that is one doctrine, another is Hades based on Greek mythology.

Ac 2:24-28

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

'I foresaw the Lord always before my face,

For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;

Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.

27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,

Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

28 You have made known to me the ways of life;

You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'

NKJV

Sounds like deeply Scripture based long before Greeks ever became! see Ps 16 and others in NT of God's Word

Mt 11:23

Mt 16:18

Lk 10:15

Lk 16:23

Ac 2:27

Ac 2:31

1 Co 15:55

Rv 1:18

Rv 6:8

Rv 20:13

Rv 20:14

again you are a perverting The Scriptures!

You have not really addressed anything satisfactorly in the points I brought up. To state two examples, as for Saul identifying it as Samuel, that is not enough proof. It is for God and His Children! People claim they see their loved one's ghosts after death all the time, but it's just that, a claim. Also, the Rich man and Lazarus story only shows your attempt to wanting to take it literally, the very thing I said one can't do. However the Spirit of God shows forth many literal truths associated with this account and literal truths are the purpose of parables...

I once believed as you do, but abandoned some of these ideas since they did not pass scriptural muster to me and upon learning the outside influences to Christianity over the years that the apostles would not have believed. That is where your problem is God calls The Word His! A He states that it is able to do this

2 Ti 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

NKJV

2 Pe 1:21

21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

NKJV

I don't believe God let history or anything of man effect His Word or the above would be a lie from God--- would it not?

Blessings.

You do not believe in the inerrant doctrine of Scriptures do you? Love, Steven

[gnomonist]

@enoob57

Hades is Sheol, that's how they translated it. But that does not mean that it's the same way the Greeks meant it as an afterlife or place of torture, but rather the way the Jews understood Sheol. That's the abode of the dead (the grave). All those verses of Hades (Sheol) does nothing regarding the doctrine of an immortal soul. Rather, one deduces the idea of an immortal soul if they accept the Greek meaning of Hades, which is not what was intended as I already pointed out. As a matter of fact, your verses regarding Hades are all taken from the NT which proves my point.

I'm not sure the significance of the verses quoted in Peter, Timothy etc about the scriptures being the inspiration of God. If the implication is that I'm convoluting the scripture without regards to answering my points, then that is using FUD to try to twist one's viewpoint to whatever the other deems is correct. I'll answer further only if the comments presented are worth considering.

Blessings.

[noobie]

I believe they are sleeping, as I don't believe in disecting the "soul" from the body but are in effect the same thing. It's like a computer. Hardware, software and power to run it. Cut off any of these things and the computer dies.

Besides the numerous references so far about sleeping, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing. It's like before you were born. You never knew you were a person, you never knew there was sunshine, you never knew you were a father or mother.... nothing! The reason they know nothing is because awareness presupposes knowledge. So, by knowing nothing, is in effect saying unconscious.

Now to list and address some of the protests to sleeping:

1) The spirit of Samuel came to Saul. Probably was a demon assuming Samuel's form. We cannot prove it was Samuel. For sure, up to Christ's time, he stated no man has ever ascended to heaven. This is why conjuring was forbidden in the OT, so why would God allow something unlawful to come to pass? Saul already knew the prophecy of Samuel but wanted to hear his slant on things coming from Samuel (the way we hope parents will change their minds and allow us to do the things we were told not to). Since God already gave up on Saul, he turned him over to an evil spirit. That's what conjuring brings up, evil spirits, which is why it was forbidden. Seeing how Saul knew Samuel and recognized him as Samuel isn't enough for you as proof that it was him???

2) After the fifth seal was opened, the souls of those under the altar cry out. That's symbolic the way Abel's blood cried from the ground. Seriously, does anyone here think souls of dead people would be under the altar? That's a strange place for them to be, wouldn't you say? I suggest you build a good Theological Hermeneutic to foundation yourself in God's Word because your all over the place Here! 2Tim 2:15

3) The Rich man and Lazarus: That's a parable, a story that uses imagery or silimiles to compare to something else. Jesus himself stated parables were not to be taken literally, but rather he spoke in parables because: Jesus said parables were to represent truth... in this Jesus has them communicating, exspressing emotion, suffering, looking toward future event etc.... certainly not asleep!

"Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand"

and boy! all I can say is this parable is misunderstood! I know that because people are interpretting it literally.

4) The Transfiguration: This was a vision of the end times and does not need Moses and Elijah to be alive for this to happen. As a matter of fact, since the resurrection did not occur yet, Moses and Elijah were very much dead and as previously pointed out, no man has ever ascended to heaven. Right it was a mountain top on earth not Heaven and they came from the Paradise side of Hades!

Reason this out. For a soul to be conscious supposes one is in a spiritual body, but Paul made it clear that in the resurrection the believer would be raised a spirit. So.... we get two spirits? The doctrine of consciousness after death comes from the immortal soul doctrine which the bible does not teach. On the contrary, the soul that sins will die.

there is so much here violates the hermeneutic of Scripture! As God has said

2 Pe 1:19-21

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place,

until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture

is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as

they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

NKJV

This means what it means and when the simple truth appears seek no other truth for God hates itching ears

2 Ti 4:3-5

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because

they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth,

and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist,

fulfill your ministry.

NKJV

I suggest you get yourself around some Godly Bible Teachers and learn of the foundation God has given you! Love, Steven

Greetings:

I think the whole thing hinges on an immortal soul doctrine. We have to be careful of things that crept into Christianity, as that is one doctrine, another is Hades based on Greek mythology.

You have not really addressed anything satisfactorly in the points I brought up. To state two examples, as for Saul identifying it as Samuel, that is not enough proof. People claim they see their loved one's ghosts after death all the time, but it's just that, a claim. Also, the Rich man and Lazarus story only shows your attempt to wanting to take it literally, the very thing I said one can't do.

I once believed as you do, but abandoned some of these ideas since they did not pass scriptural muster to me and upon learning the outside influences to Christianity over the years that the apostles would not have believed.

Blessings.

Greetings! Wouldn't it be more beneficial to stay inside the influences of Christianity and His Word?

[BlessedByTheBest]

ok. thank you everyone for voicing your thoughts on this.

it was my understanding that the dead now sleep since Christ's resurrection and His taking of captivity captive, although i must admit there is much scripture that seems to refute the idea.

but i believe we should focus on after Christ obtained the keys of death and Hades.

Paradise no longer exists as it was known before His ascension, but is now in the 3rd Heaven, correct? Abraham's bosom is empty.

but anyways there is just one thing that irks me...why would brother Paul say that the dead in Christ shall rise first if he was only speaking of their bodies? it doesn't make sense to me that he was not speaking spiritually here.

if they were not sleeping, then what are they rising out of or from?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

thoughts?