These things did not "evolve"

[Fez]

Some of you known that I work in nature Conservation and that things natural, in His amazing creation, fascinate me. Take trees for instance, and in this instance North American seasonal forests that have rivers that support salmon spawning...

 

Nitrogen 15 is an isotope of Nitrogen. The ratio of 15 N in an organism can give clues about its diet, as movement up the food chain to concentrate the 15N isotope, by 3-4‰ with each step of the food chain.

 

Most of the trees and plants and animals (like bears) in North American seasonal forests, have 15 N as part of their makeup. It is found in bears hair, tree wood and bark, and many other places. The 15 N we are talking about here comes from one source.

 

The ocean.

 

The forests cannot exist without it, it is the growth medium (along with the Wood wide web – yes there is one!), and is found in the makeup of about 85% of the seasonal forest trees we are talking about.

 

How does it get there? How does it get in the bears hair?

Here’s, the magic. From the salmon. The salmon die, or get eaten by bears. Insects lay eggs in rotting salmon flesh, birds eat the insects, the bears, insects and birds, all do what bears do in the woods.... And the 15 N is spread as fertilizer.

 

The better the salmon run, the larger the growth rings in the trees! Without the salmon (and water) the trees would die. So during the dry season the trees rely on root fungus which can be miles and miles long, and so compact that a block of soil no bigger than a cigarette pack can hold a mile of fungus. The fungus joins trees for miles around in what is now called the Wood Wide Web. Trees support each other with nutrients and water, and even send nutrients to younger trees and saplings.

 

All because of the salmon.

These things did not evolve, they were created so.

[nChrist]

Almighty God is an amazing Creator. Thanks for sharing.

[missmuffet]

Some of you known that I work in nature Conservation and that things natural, in His amazing creation, fascinate me. Take trees for instance, and in this instance North American seasonal forests that have rivers that support salmon spawning...

 

Nitrogen 15 is an isotope of Nitrogen. The ratio of 15 N in an organism can give clues about its diet, as movement up the food chain to concentrate the 15N isotope, by 3-4‰ with each step of the food chain.

 

Most of the trees and plants and animals (like bears) in North American seasonal forests, have 15 N as part of their makeup. It is found in bears hair, tree wood and bark, and many other places. The 15 N we are talking about here comes from one source.

 

The ocean.

 

The forests cannot exist without it, it is the growth medium (along with the Wood wide web – yes there is one!), and is found in the makeup of about 85% of the seasonal forest trees we are talking about.

 

How does it get there? How does it get in the bears hair?

Here’s, the magic. From the salmon. The salmon die, or get eaten by bears. Insects lay eggs in rotting salmon flesh, birds eat the insects, the bears, insects and birds, all do what bears do in the woods.... And the 15 N is spread as fertilizer.

 

The better the salmon run, the larger the growth rings in the trees! Without the salmon (and water) the trees would die. So during the dry season the trees rely on root fungus which can be miles and miles long, and so compact that a block of soil no bigger than a cigarette pack can hold a mile of fungus. The fungus joins trees for miles around in what is now called the Wood Wide Web. Trees support each other with nutrients and water, and even send nutrients to younger trees and saplings.

 

All because of the salmon.

These things did not evolve, they were created so.

No Fez,I did not know that you worked in a Nature Conservation.That must be really interesting.You have God all around you.

[nebula]

Wow, that's fascinating!

 

And scary - to realize how much terrestrial life relies on the healthy salmon runs.

[elegant_atheist]

Every animal and living thing on this earth evolved. You evolved from a common ancestor that the chimp, gorilla, orangutan, and us share.

 

As for the argument of N15, I am not a scientist but I found this and I think it disproves your theory. Nitrogen isotopes indicate the trophic level position of various marine organisms (reflective of the time the tissue samples were taken). There is a larger enrichment component with δ15N because its retention is higher than that of 14N. This can be seen by analyzing the waste of organisms. Cattle urine has shown that there is a depletion of 15N relative to the diet. As organisms eat each other, the 15N isotopes are transferred to the predators. Thus, organisms higher in the trophic pyramid have accumulated higher levels of 15N ( and higher δ15N values) relative to their prey and others before them in the food web. Numerous studies on marine ecosystems have shown that on average there is a 3.2‰ enrichment of 15N vs. diet between different trophic level species in ecosystems. In the Baltic sea, Hansson et al. (1997) found that when analyzing a variety of creatures (such as particulate organic matter (phytoplankton), zooplankton, mysids, sprat, smelt and herring,) there was an apparent fractionation of 2.4‰ between consumers and their apparent prey.

 

In addition to trophic positioning of organisms, δ15N values have become commonly used in distinguishing between land derived and natural sources of nutrients. As water travels from septic tanks to aquifers, the nitrogen rich water is delivered into coastal areas. Waste-water nitrate has higher concentrations of 15N than the nitrate that is found in natural soils in near shore zones. For bacteria, it is more convenient for them to uptake 14N as opposed to 15N because it is a lighter element and easier to metabolize. Thus, due to bacteria's preference when performing biogeochemical processes such as denitrification and volatilization of ammonia, 14N is removed from the water at a faster rate than 15N, resulting in more 15N entering the aquifer. 15N is roughly 10-20‰ as opposed to the natural 15N values of 2-8‰. The inorganic nitrogen that is emitted from septic tanks and other human-derived sewage is usually in the form of NH4+. Once the nitrogen enters the estuaries via groundwater, it is thought that because there is more 15N entering, that there will also be more 15N in the inorganic nitrogen pool delivered and that it is picked up more by producers taking up N. Even though 14N is easier to take up, because there is much more 15N, there will still be higher amounts assimilated than normal. These levels of δ15N can be examined in creatures that live in the area and are non migratory (such as macrophytes, clams and even some fish). This method of identifying high levels of nitrogen input is becoming a more and more popular method in attempting to monitor nutrient input into estuaries and coastal ecosystems. Environmental managers have become more and more concerned about measuring anthropogenic nutrient inputs into estuaries because excess in nutrients can lead to eutrophication and hypoxic events, eliminating organisms from an area entirely.

 

Now that your argument is explained thoroughly to be totally compatible for the theory of evolution, why don't I challenge you to explain some things. If animals didn't evolve why does the Laryngeal nerve go from the brain all the way back down to the chest looping around one of the main arteries of the chest, before it goes all the way back up to the larynx? This is explained here. Also,  the Modern DNA lineage mapping and tracking wins hands down. It shows past relationships and acts as a sort of timeline clock. We can see old bits of ancient viral particles, now unused, in our genes as well as the same stuff in chimp and ape and lemur DNA. It shows identical aging artifacts and identical attributes. Also, some of our unused DNA is just "temporarily out of service" because it's no longer needed. But it can and has been reactivated in the lab and then provides functions identical to that which WAS functional in older species.

Finally, it shows when breaks were made in the lineage, and then we go look for predictable evidence of that in the fossil record, coupled with independantly verified radioisotopic dating, and guess what?

It all coincides. 

<<< removed link. >>>

 

If you still need more help revealing to yourself that evolution is a fact, read Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne. 

Edited July 27, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< removed link >>>

[Fez]

If you still need more help revealing to yourself that evolution is a fact, read Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne.

Thank you for your response.

 

The forests we talk about have no septic tanks near them nor their outfalls and are in pristine wilderness and a hundreds of miles from the sea and estuaries, the 15 N is ocean based. Some of the tree core samples containing the isotope go back to the early 1700's. 

If you need help to have The Lord Jesus Christ and the Fathers amazing Creation revealed to you read "The Bible", and stick around Worthy for a while. You may very well have the truth revealed to you!

God Bless.

[Guest]

Of Animals

 

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

 

And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

 

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:19-25

 

And

 

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:26-27

 

Ancestors

 

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38

 

~

 

Every animal and living thing on this earth evolved. You evolved from a common ancestor that the chimp, gorilla, orangutan, and us share.

 

~

 

Than You Dear One

 

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

 

For Your Clear Religious Statement

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

 

However It Is Has Been Known

 

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17

 

To Bible Believers

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans 1:18-19
 

For Quite

 

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

 

Some

 

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1:21

 

Time

 

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1:22-23

 

You See

 

~

 

Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Joe

[nebula]

Fascinating, since I too am a conservation biologist.  Interestingly, I spent much of my time working in the Pacific Northwest on salmon conservation!

 

So if the point of the OP is "forests can't exist without anadromous salmonids, therefore they couldn't have evolved", then a necessary prediction would be that we shouldn't see forests without anadromous salmonids.  Correct?

 

"anadromous salmonids" ?

 

OK, since you felt the need to display your superior knowledge of the topic, would you mind explaining to the lowly of us what this term means, and why it's used instead of simple and plain "salmon"?

[Fez]

 

Fascinating, since I too am a conservation biologist.  Interestingly, I spent much of my time working in the Pacific Northwest on salmon conservation!

 

So if the point of the OP is "forests can't exist without anadromous salmonids, therefore they couldn't have evolved", then a necessary prediction would be that we shouldn't see forests without anadromous salmonids.  Correct?

 

"anadromous salmonids" ?

 

OK, since you felt the need to display your superior knowledge of the topic, would you mind explaining to the lowly of us what this term means, and why it's used instead of simple and plain "salmon"?

 

Lol, I am not a conservation biologist, I am a conservation manager (we are the ones that do the actual work as we like to say here in South Africa... )

 

 "anadromous salmonids" ?

Yes Nebula, you know. Otherwise known as fish......

Many of which migrate (anadromous). Some such as the sparids, little is known about, except for the fact that many of their species start off life as female, and the more dominant change into males. (otherwise known as secondary gonochorism).

Ain't God's creation a wonderful thing.

 

I mean explain to me, a simple manager, how this would work in evolution. Most sparid species are born female. How did they survive and breed in the first instance? Did one bright fish say, "hey I want to be a male to exploit all these females", because basically that is still what happens today. The ratio's of male to female are slanted greatly on the female side. Super fast evolution for a fish that has a probable lifespan of 30 years tops....

[Fez]

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question: If the point of the OP is "forests can't exist without anadromous salmonids, therefore they couldn't have evolved", then a necessary prediction would be that we shouldn't see forests without anadromous salmonids.  Correct?

It wasn't the point of the OP. Certain forests rely on salmon, you know, fish, for their growth cycle and without the salmon the forests would not occur where they do, or at the very least the ecosystem would be different and perhaps a different type of system would be in it's place.

 

God sent the salmon up the rivers to breed, God created the plants, what is so hard to understand about that?

 

Coastal dune forest don't rely on salmon or any other fish, so your supposition is as wide as Gods created ecosystems are different, and micro climates within ecosystems are different. But surely as a thinking biologist you would know this? As a matter of interest what did you major in?

 

I do not enter into evolution arguments because I reject the theory outright. So you are debating with the wrong person.

 

God is my creator, and I live in His creation. And that for me is final.