It Is All A Process

[OneLight]

Tell me one thing, when you were first saved, was your faith and works as they are today? Were you immediately made mature with all understanding, perfect in all of Gods ways?

 

No, it took me 25 years to let God perfect me into a son of God. Then in the last 6-7 years Christ has perfected me even more like Him. - Glory to glory.

It seems scripture speaks against being perfect while still being in this life. Paul spoke one particular time about the difference in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." It is possible to assume certain scripture is telling us that we cannot sin once we are born again, but that does go against scripture, for there are far more verses in scripture that instructs us to continue the good fight, to win the race, to carry our cross daily ... all this inferring that we do have the ability to sin when born again. There is nowhere in scripture that tells us that the old man is dead in us, just that our following the sin nature is no longer the reigning factor. We have been shown a better way.

 

Again, you place a yoke around your own neck, along with others, but trying to tell them that they need to be sinless, which is impossible to do, but what we strive to be.

 

Christ's yoke is light - for all the things Christ calls me to do is what I desire to do, which makes it easy. When a person has the nature/Spirit of Christ, they will naturally do the things of Christ.

 

You don't understand what I am saying. I am not questioning God, but man. For you to never sin is impossible while still living in this flesh. IF you were sinless, you would not be alive. You see, if being born again was the end all, there would be nothing more for God to instruct us in after the process of being born again was complete.

 

This is where you are very, very wrong. Christ came to overcome and clense all sin out of us through the work of His Grace and Holy Spirit.

 

I do live without committing any willful sins anymore. This is the power of Christ living in me. I am very much alive and righteous in Christ, because it is ALL Christ living in me.

 

Come to Christ and believe and be free from sin as Christ has promised - Free Indeed.

 

If you will not have faith in what Christ has come to do in you, which is to cleanse you of ALL sin, then you will never be cleansed of ALL sin, because of your lack of faith in Christ and His promises.

 

There is much more to do for the Lord and more power to do it all after being born of God then before being born of God. You probably just won't know about these things until you experience it for your self.

I have no problem with Christ dying for our sin, nor do I have any problem with Him working in me to make me like Christ, nor do I have any problem with leaning on Him in time of need. What I have a problem with is your teaching that one can be sinless in this world, meaning that if they are not sinless, they are not His, for God cannot allow sin into His presence. That is a false teaching and have caused many to feel like they are lost forever, even if they truly believe in Christ and His salvation ... all become someone told them that if they truly was His, they would never sin.

If anyone knows the weakness of us it is God Himself. He knows that even with His Spirit in us, we still become weak at times.

[Elhanan]

 

 

I am willing to change my theology if you can prove that being born again is a process. I do not find this in the statements of belief of this forum or in their statement as to what is a Christian. Nor can I find it in the Bible.

Correct me if I'm wrong but by your use of the term "born again" you're referring to salvation correct? If so, salvation/born again is indeed a process.

While we have been saved in the past:

Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

Salvation is also a process which needs to be worked out:

Phil 2:12 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

We are presently receiving our salvation:

1 Pet 1:8-9 "Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls"

And in the future we shall receive our salvation:

Rom 5:9-10 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. ¹⁰ For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Rom 13:11 "And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed."

1 Cor 3:15 "If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Cor 5:5 " ... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

I do not disagree with what you said about salvation.

But, I believe that being born again is NOT a process. Salvation is a process. Being born again is part of salvation but they are not synonomous. Born again is when we first receive and are sealed by the Holy Spirit and our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, which begins our salvation. Salvation culmunates with the redemption of our bodies when Jesus comes back for us. At that time we receive glorified bodies like His. Being delivered from sin is also a part of salvation. But we are only born again once to my knowledge. So I believe he is in error by thinking being born again is the same thing as salvation. It is only the beginning of salvation. I do not believe that we need to repeatedly be saved when ever we sin. We do need to repent, confess our sin and ask God to deliver us from unrighteousness to stay in fellowship with Him. 1 John 1: 8-9 To my knowledge we are only born again once. I am repeating what I have said in other posts on this topic.

 

Thank you for clarifying your view as I now understand your point. Based on his various posts, it appears that OneWithGod subscribes to the New Nature view which believes that Christians do not sin because they have been given a new nature from God.  Because of this, Christians do not sin even occasionally; they are sinless.  The other view is the Habitual Sin view that I subscribe to which holds that believers will not sin as a pattern of life. They will not be dominated by sin. They will be characterized by holiness and obedience. Sins for the true believer are merely occasional aberrations that are repented of as one continues on down the path of sanctification.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Elhanan

[Willa]

I believe that what you discribe is the lifestyle of the more mature believers. Babes In Christ are in the process of becomming more and more like Jesus as well, but like toddlers and children, they are more inconsistant. If they had been walking in the Spirit for many ears I would expect more consistancy than a babe in Christ. 1st John discribes this when addressing little children, young men, and older Christians.

Thank you, for the info. I am not familiar with holiness belief and did not realize he was a part of this till the last couple of posts, when he said he was of the holiness doctrine and I asked if he believed in the Trinity. People who don't believe in the Trinity are not considered to be Christians by some. I do know some people from holiness background whom I love and admire very much. My cousin was a missionary with the Christian Missionary Alliance. I do believe that we are all sinners saved by grace. Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. But we are all in the process of being changed from glory to glory; and all of us can fall occasionally and need to come to God in repentance asking for forgiveness in such a case. We are united in our love for God and each other as well in our faith in Jesus. My cousin and I have wonderful fellowship in Him and i so enjoy her. I didn't mean to offend One having no idea what he believed or why, and having little understanding of what he was even saying. I was puzzled by his reaction. Thank you for helping to explain.

[OneWithGod]

 

 

Now you claim I have a sinners' theology because I rarely read KJV? Please pray about this and ask God if your attitude is godly.

Reread my posts to see if I am soft on sin in any way.. Am I willing to call sin what God has called sin? Do I research God's word to check the accuracy of the words used to translate? Do you? Do you check the veracity of your holiness theology against Scripture?

I am willing to change my theology if you can prove that being born again is a process. I do not find this in the statements of belief of this forum or in their statement as to what is a Christian. Nor can I find it in the Bible.

Do you believe in the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God, as is confessed by this forum? Are you open to correction should your beliefs be contrary to Scripture? Please pray about these things before accusing me of having a sinner's theology. I wish to show you Godly love and grace, even though I don't agree with you.

1 John 1:8 NKJV If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. Am I being soft on sin? I am agreeing with what God says is sin.

Please forgive me if I have been soft on sin, Lord, and please correct both of us where we are in error, and shed your light on your Word. Please open my eyes to Your truth where I am wrong. God, have mercy on me, a sinner. In Jesus Name, Amen.

You are assumming things. I don't say you have a sinners theology because you rarely read the KJV, it is because you believe that everyone stays a sinner even after being born of God.

 

Are you saying that people who do not read the KJV Bible are sinners?

 

No, not at all !!!

 

Sinners are sinners because they are still in bondage to lies and their own evil selfisness - where holy and righteous people are no longer in bondage to sin, but bound to holiness instead.

[OneWithGod]

 

IN the above, what keeps one from being saved? It is the "practice" of such lifestyle, meaning to continue to live in them, not by committing them one or twice is weakness. You are placing a yoke upon people that is not there.

In the Greek, the work prassontes (G4238) is used, where the KJV turns it into "those which do such things", giving the spin that they mean even once. The Greek word means to perform repeatedly, not once. Here is what a Greek dictionary tells us about the word parassontes:

To do, make , perform in general, expressing an action as continued or not yet completed, what one does repeatedly, continually, habitually.

Here is the regular differentiation from the English dictionary:

practice

1.habitual or customary performance; operation: office practice.

2.habit; custom: It is not the practice here for men to wear long hair.

3.repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of acquiring skill or proficiency: Practice makes perfect.

4.condition arrived at by experience or exercise: She refused to play the piano, because she was out of practice.

5.the action or process of performing or doing something: to put a scheme into practice; the shameful practices of a blackmailer.

You see, it is the continuing action, unwilling to change, that is the separating factor, not the once or twice weakness that we all go through. To say one must be sinless to be saved is not true. It is our hearts that God judges, more than our actions.

 

The newer versions (after 1950) have lightened up and corrupted God's Word. The word "Practice" is not in the older NT versions of God's Scriptures. This was added by the sinful reasoning of men that wrote these newer version of the bible.

 

If someone desires to go with these corrupted newer versions of the bible that are light on sin, then let it be so, for they are looking for all the excuses they can to keep sinning - to support their current lifestyles and to keep promoting the bondage of sin in other "Christians".

 

What I present is from a copy of the original Greek manuscripts, not from the bibles we have today. Yes, this is what was said so you can't hide behind the all so famous accusations about men corrupting the bible.

You would do yourself a huge favor if you studied using an Interlinear Bible where the Greek is show, along with a word for word translation in the exact format they spoke in.

Galatians 5:21 KJV

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Greek

phthonoi phonoi methai kOmoi kai ta homoia toutois ha prolrgO humin kathOs kai proeipon hoti hoi ta toiauta prassontes basileian theou ou klEronomEsousin

Word for word translation

ENVIES MURDERS DRUNKennesses REVELries AND THE LIKE to-these WHICH I-AM-BEFORE-sayING to-YOU according-AS AND I-BEFORE-said that THE-ones THE such PRACTISING KINGdom OF-God NOT SHALL-BE-tenantING

 

I agree !!!

[OneWithGod]

 

 

 

 

Tell me one thing, when you were first saved, was your faith and works as they are today? Were you immediately made mature with all understanding, perfect in all of Gods ways?

 

No, it took me 25 years to let God perfect me into a son of God. Then in the last 6-7 years Christ has perfected me even more like Him. - Glory to glory.

 

It seems scripture speaks against being perfect while still being in this life. Paul spoke one particular time about the difference in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." It is possible to assume certain scripture is telling us that we cannot sin once we are born again, but that does go against scripture, for there are far more verses in scripture that instructs us to continue the good fight, to win the race, to carry our cross daily ... all this inferring that we do have the ability to sin when born again. There is nowhere in scripture that tells us that the old man is dead in us, just that our following the sin nature is no longer the reigning factor. We have been shown a better way.

 

 

 

 

Again, you place a yoke around your own neck, along with others, but trying to tell them that they need to be sinless, which is impossible to do, but what we strive to be.

 

Christ's yoke is light - for all the things Christ calls me to do is what I desire to do, which makes it easy. When a person has the nature/Spirit of Christ, they will naturally do the things of Christ.

 

 

You don't understand what I am saying. I am not questioning God, but man. For you to never sin is impossible while still living in this flesh. IF you were sinless, you would not be alive. You see, if being born again was the end all, there would be nothing more for God to instruct us in after the process of being born again was complete.

 

 

This is where you are very, very wrong. Christ came to overcome and clense all sin out of us through the work of His Grace and Holy Spirit.

 

I do live without committing any willful sins anymore. This is the power of Christ living in me. I am very much alive and righteous in Christ, because it is ALL Christ living in me.

 

Come to Christ and believe and be free from sin as Christ has promised - Free Indeed.

 

If you will not have faith in what Christ has come to do in you, which is to cleanse you of ALL sin, then you will never be cleansed of ALL sin, because of your lack of faith in Christ and His promises.

 

There is much more to do for the Lord and more power to do it all after being born of God then before being born of God. You probably just won't know about these things until you experience it for your self.

 

I have no problem with Christ dying for our sin, nor do I have any problem with Him working in me to make me like Christ, nor do I have any problem with leaning on Him in time of need. What I have a problem with is your teaching that one can be sinless in this world, meaning that if they are not sinless, they are not His, for God cannot allow sin into His presence. That is a false teaching and have caused many to feel like they are lost forever, even if they truly believe in Christ and His salvation ... all become someone told them that if they truly was His, they would never sin.

If anyone knows the weakness of us it is God Himself. He knows that even with His Spirit in us, we still become weak at times.

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

You can believe what you desire to believe, unless you decide to believe God's Word over your own selfish opinions and reasoning. God has given everyone the choice of what they will believe. Most people's beliefs will not be of God's Truth by choice, but there will always be a few that will desire and gravitate to God for His Truth to be real in their lives.

[OneWithGod]

 

Since you believe the modern biblical lies that are promoted in the newer version bibles, which are light on sin, then we really have nothing more to discuss - Since you have a sinners theology and I have a holiness theology.

 

 

Works don't earn you salvation, nor can one buy it through some kind of self-measured "holiness."  If you claim to be "holy," which you obviously think your are, or you would not be preaching this kind of flawed salvation doctrine, then where are you deriving your litmus test for being holy?  Because no person achieves total holiness this side of life.  You are not sinless, nor are you free of willful sin, or you would not be purposely and consciously teaching something which the Bible very clearly displays as being false.  If you were not "holy" according to your own way of thinking, would you still be pushing this doctrine so enthusiastically?  Because I notice that people who claim to be part of this really exclusive holiness club are members of it who seem to think they have "arrived."  I don't ever see anyone preaching this stuff that isn't "holy" or feels like they won't reach that "holy" plateau, wherever, or whatever it is. 

 

We receive and grow in salvation by faith, but if the faith doesn't have any secondary works to accompany that faith, then that faith is a dead faith. If we say we believe something, but by our actions say otherwise, then we are telling God and the rest of the world that we don't really believe what we are saying we believe.

 

Sanctification is an on-going and life-long process.  Salvation is not.  A person is saved, positionally, the moment they accept Jesus as their Savior, not after they have lived their lives according to some standard of holiness that is measured arbitrarily by human beings.  The thief on the cross did not have a lifetime to achieve this holiness you are pushing, and he was still saved.  The disciples had not lived their lives yet, and they still had sins ahead of them, some of them very willful sins, and Jesus always spoke to all of them, except Judas, as if they were already saved, positionally.  And He spoke to them that way because of their faith, not some false self-proclaimed level of holiness.  No one who labels themselves as 'holy", or goes around telling people they have to be "holy" too is actually holy.  If they were, it would be self-evident, and they wouldn't have to advertise it.

 

Salavation is an on-going process and is tied to our santification in Christ. We must first be initially sanctified at justification, then we must continue our salvation by continuing in our sanctification until we become entirely sanctified in Christ - where only Christ lives in us and all our old selfish nature is dead and gone.

 

2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation ; the old has gone, the new has come!  NIV

 

The new creation can not fully come until the old creature (selfishness) is gone. We must go through a sanctification process to rid ourselves of this sinful nature through the power of God's grace.

 

 

Care to elaborate what these "modern" bibles are?  If you are going to level charges, you really should go ahead and say exactly which ones they are.  Although it wouldn't be hard to guess. The Bible, no matter what the translation, unless it is re-written for a specific purpose, is not "light" on sin.  People and certain preachers are light on sin, and that is not the same thing.  Even so, not one of us is sinless, including you. 

 

The differences between the newer and the older versions are about 5% and are mostly found through out the New Testament portion. They all have to do with the holiness or lack of holiness that interpreters have believed and now have written into the scriptures - which are different from the original writtings and intent of the scripture. They have added and removed words in very important holiness passages, or what should of stayed holiness passages.

 

[OneLight]

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me one thing, when you were first saved, was your faith and works as they are today? Were you immediately made mature with all understanding, perfect in all of Gods ways?

 

No, it took me 25 years to let God perfect me into a son of God. Then in the last 6-7 years Christ has perfected me even more like Him. - Glory to glory.

 

It seems scripture speaks against being perfect while still being in this life. Paul spoke one particular time about the difference in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." It is possible to assume certain scripture is telling us that we cannot sin once we are born again, but that does go against scripture, for there are far more verses in scripture that instructs us to continue the good fight, to win the race, to carry our cross daily ... all this inferring that we do have the ability to sin when born again. There is nowhere in scripture that tells us that the old man is dead in us, just that our following the sin nature is no longer the reigning factor. We have been shown a better way.

 

 

 

 

Again, you place a yoke around your own neck, along with others, but trying to tell them that they need to be sinless, which is impossible to do, but what we strive to be.

 

Christ's yoke is light - for all the things Christ calls me to do is what I desire to do, which makes it easy. When a person has the nature/Spirit of Christ, they will naturally do the things of Christ.

 

 

You don't understand what I am saying. I am not questioning God, but man. For you to never sin is impossible while still living in this flesh. IF you were sinless, you would not be alive. You see, if being born again was the end all, there would be nothing more for God to instruct us in after the process of being born again was complete.

 

 

This is where you are very, very wrong. Christ came to overcome and clense all sin out of us through the work of His Grace and Holy Spirit.

 

I do live without committing any willful sins anymore. This is the power of Christ living in me. I am very much alive and righteous in Christ, because it is ALL Christ living in me.

 

Come to Christ and believe and be free from sin as Christ has promised - Free Indeed.

 

If you will not have faith in what Christ has come to do in you, which is to cleanse you of ALL sin, then you will never be cleansed of ALL sin, because of your lack of faith in Christ and His promises.

 

There is much more to do for the Lord and more power to do it all after being born of God then before being born of God. You probably just won't know about these things until you experience it for your self.

 

I have no problem with Christ dying for our sin, nor do I have any problem with Him working in me to make me like Christ, nor do I have any problem with leaning on Him in time of need. What I have a problem with is your teaching that one can be sinless in this world, meaning that if they are not sinless, they are not His, for God cannot allow sin into His presence. That is a false teaching and have caused many to feel like they are lost forever, even if they truly believe in Christ and His salvation ... all become someone told them that if they truly was His, they would never sin.

If anyone knows the weakness of us it is God Himself. He knows that even with His Spirit in us, we still become weak at times.

 

Then you must have a problem believing God's Word, because God's Word says anyone that sins is of the devil and not of God. When a person has been totally transformed into Christ's likeness and they no longer sin against God, then they are the sons of God, but if anyone is still in bondage to sin, they are still of the devil's nature.

 

You can believe what you desire to believe, unless you decide to believe God's Word over your own selfish opinions and reasoning. God has given everyone the choice of what they will believe. Most people's beliefs will not be of God's Truth by choice, but there will always be a few that will desire and gravitate to God for His Truth to be real in their lives.

 

You fail to see this is a life long process, which is why you continue to be blinded to the truth. While in this life, you will never uphold the righteousness of God. This is impossible.  The completion is when we are finally with Christ after death.

If what you presented was true, then nobody would be saved for we all sin.  Again, you take the intention of scripture, for one to have a goal of being like Christ, and make it a law.  The whole of John's teaching is very dangerous in the hands of the self righteous who think of themselves more than they ought to.  Romans 12:3  "For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith."

Jesus prayed for all who would believe in Him through the teachings of the Apostles in John 17:20-23

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

Jesus said "may be" 4 times. He did not say must be or will be, but may be, which is a goal to seek. Then there is also the word "perfect". I gave you the the definitions before about the word itself, now let's look at the phrase "made perfect" that is found in the scripture above.

τελειόω

G5048

teleioō

1) to make perfect, complete

... a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

2) to complete (perfect)

... a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

... b) to be found perfect

3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed

4) to accomplish

... a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event

...... 1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

You are taking a concept, a goal, and making it a law as I mentioned before. You have been shown that this is wrong by many members, yet you do not seem to even want to discuss, but debate. Why is that?

[OneLight]

The differences between the newer and the older versions are about 5% and are mostly found through out the New Testament portion. They all have to do with the holiness or lack of holiness that interpreters have believed and now have written into the scriptures - which are different from the original writtings and intent of the scripture. They have added and removed words in very important holiness passages, or what should of stayed holiness passages.

I am curious. By your statement, you sound like you belong to the holiness movement. Which holiness movement and church do you belong to?

[GoldenEagle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement