God punishing children?

[thomas t]

Thanks for the discussion so far!

 

Hi Robby,

you're welcome.

 

[...]

• Oddly enough, the Pharaoh did pursue the Israelites, despite it obviously not being a good idea. We could argue the Pharaoh was just being dumb (obviously, he was), but at the end of the day, the punishment didn't deter him. At least, not until after getting wiped out by the Red Sea. Does that mean that the 10 plagues weren't really necessary?

 

To me, it seems at least to have been necessary to prevent the other Egyptians (those that have stayed at home) from doing further harm to Israel.

 

Have a good day,

Thomas

[thomas t]

 

Hi Thomas, I feel like I should say I'm not trying to be harsh on you, you seem like a nice guy and I enjoy reading your posts, but this is a serious not-so-fun-topic to think about. Any harshness you experience coming off of me is me being harsh on the topic,

 

Hi,

thank you D9, I understand what you're trying to convey.

 

 

[...] holding the Bible and God up to standards we would expect from anyone else in the same situation. I think it would be a disservice to the mind, morality, and even God/religion to exempt holy books and their corresponding apologetics from feeling the full weight of criticism humanity has to offer. 

 

[...]

[...] Christians elevate the God of the Bible as the epitome of love and morality - not to mention Christians claim to derive their morality from this book.

 

There is the one morality for humans and another for God, in my opinion. This leads us to the next point..

 

 

 

About using the term genocide, then I'll be quite about why I'm using it unless there's a question, I too looked up the wiki page and this is what it had to say: Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, caste, religious, or national group".  What God did in the Bible, were deliberate and systematic mass killings/murders (which qualifies the "destruction" aspect according to international law and UN resolutions on genocide) of groups based on their nationality and religion down to the last woman and child. It is genocide by definition, and I do feel very strongly that we shouldn't shy away from such words, [...]

 

How can we as humans attack God, I'm asking myself, saying he was committing crime? I'm still having in mind this Wikipedia article having used this term to describe "genocide". But perhaps you put the God of the Bible on the same level as humans. Maybe putting it this way "when humans killed other people, it was and still is crime. Hence, what God did was also a crime!"?

My answer would be: How many humans did Hitler create, in contrast? what was his motivation for this?

 

 

despite that you believe killing children and babies will take them to Heaven 100% of the time.

 

Actually I'm not sure, personally. I only see this Bible verse saying that David's child went to heaven ...

But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”2.Sam. 12:23

 

 

So don't be surprised when I'm not convinced that earthly pain vs. eternity is a sufficient justification for God to demand the death of children. 

 

but this wasn't what I was trying to say. Actually, I wanted to show that, in my opinion, the problem breaks down to, first, the pain that a child maybe experiences during the moment of his or her death and, secondly, the loss of the opportunities life brings about. I left out the consequences of such event for the parents and for the rest of society as a whole.

However, I think that in the case of the children God has killed they didn't have any opportunities left, in the first place.

 

 

 

[...] it is obvious that God hasn't given everyone that chance as he ordered the death of countless children who ultimately had no chance because of God himself. 

 

I respectfully disagree with that one. I'm convinced that God gives chances, but sometimes it is humans that take them away. Hence, at the end of their lives they don't have chances left, as sad as it may be. This is how it was in those cases, as I see them.

 

Have a good day

Thomas

[thomas t]

As for Hitler, his motivation was [...] to punish the Jews for destroying his homeland.

 

Hello D-9,

when did the Jews destroy his homeland? What are you referring to?

 

 

And what was God's reason for genocide? Most of it centered around revenge (sometimes centuries after the supposed crime against the Hebrews) and keeping the Hebrews isolated from other cultures to support the Hebrew nation as the 'chosen race/people'. I could be wrong, but I have yet to encounter evidence that God demanded genocide for any reasonable reason (do you really think God couldn't have secured the lineage of Christ without genocide?). I don't consider myself a violent guy, but I also understand that violence is sometimes necessary, as are wars, and I can even comprehend the idea that genocide is acceptable under the right conditions - although I'm not sure what they'd be. But I see no morally acceptable reason for God (with all his might and supernatural powers) to order and participate in genocide as he did. With all his power, wisdom, and knowledge, shouldn't God have found a way to achieve his goals without genocide? I say "yes". 

[...]

At the end of the day the problem I have is that God demanded genocide for no real good reason as far as I can tell. And for me that is not indicative of any morality I would associate with. It doesn't look like the work of an all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely wise God with any decent sense of right and wrong. Instead it looks like a story about a bunch of savage brutes with no moral scruples.

 

In my opinion, you just don't understand. Revenge doesn't preclude other reasons. Of course it was revenge in the case of the Amalekites, for instance. However, the Amalekites posed a great risk to Israel, as we can see here:

 

Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country.

They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel, neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys. Judges 6:3-4

 

... and that was already more than a century later than the instance God referred to for his reason of revenge.

 

After Saul failed to take revenge properly the way God ordered it, they still kept on attacking Israel and doing great harm to it.

 

David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag. They had attacked Ziklag and burned it, and had taken captive the women and everyone else in it, both young and old. They killed none of them, but carried them off as they went on their way. 1. Sam. 30:1-2

 

.. and that was already many centuries after God decided to take revenge on them.

 

 

 it was God [who took the chances away, added mine] by demanding their deaths.

 

Did they still have any, after man acted against them? Can you be sure about your answer that you're supposed to give me now?

 

Thomas

[Guest]

The only reason why God, with all his power, knowledge, and wisdom, would ever demand genocide is because God wants genocide....

 

~

 

What God Waits

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:9-10

 

So Beloved, Why Do You Wait?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

[Hawkins]

The big picture is that God counts souls, He counts sheep but not wolves. God puts the first death in a much lower priority then the second death. Everyone will have to die once, one way or another. This is so because if one will have to spend his eternity in hell then what's point of keeping his first death a natural death ? Especially in the case that their living is to stop God from saving more souls (of His sheep). That's why God adapts or allow the Jews to adapt the eye for eye and tooth for tooth policy. The killing of the first born sons of the Egyptians act more like a vengeance for the Egyptians killing the Jews' children at will just for the purpose of population control. And God removed any enemies (should I say wolves) of the Jews to make sure that His salvation of human souls can extend through history till today. Humans kill each other, wipe each other out (adults or children alike) at that period of time (the time when God decided to intervene to reserve the Jews branch). That says, if the Jews didn't kill their enemies, they could have been wiped out as a whole by their cruel surrounding enemies. To put it another way, humans kill each other without mercy, God just chose one of these human branches to preserve for the reason that this branch can carry His message of salvation onward to save more human souls along the timeline of human history.

 

As for children's death, will they enter hell after death ? They won't as they are not mature enough to be judged by Law. On the other hand, if they die as adults (being killed or not). They enter hell. God's morality and priority is save human souls (His sheep). Israel is more like a planted seed of His salvation. Anyone trying to stop this seed from growing up to bear fruits, he will be removed. That's the situation.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Hawkins

[gray wolf]

Hello D-9, my comments in purple..

God has punished children and babies on multiple accounts.

 

 However, you won't find a single instance, in which God punished children isolated from their community ... (let's see if you are going to evoke the story with the 42 children, we could discuss that one, too).

 

 

Besides God killing a bunch of Egyptian children because God hardened pharoah's heart so he wouldn't let the Hebrews go,

 

The causal link "because" is by you, but is this the only possible cause we can figure out? As Brother Paul pointed out, Pharao hardened his heart by himself before God has done anything to them (Exodus 5:2-5).

 

 

[....] Then you have a few genocides ordered by God: ASV Bible

 

"genocide"  is the wrong word, in my opinion, because it implies unlawfulness, as I understand it. God, the creator, is above all law, he can do what he wants. Would you mind be talking of "killing", instead?

 

 

[....]

So not only has God killed numerous children and infants, he has killed innocent children as punishment for the parent's actions. If you have a problem with that than you obviously don't understand what Godly love is, and you should probably pray to God that he purges whatever sin is in your life that keeps you from seeing how loving it is to kill innocent babies for the sins of the parents.

 

This is quite a facetious remark, I think. Who suffers when a parent's child dies, in your opinion?

And do you want to discuss pain issues of earthly death in lights of eternity (see discussion above)?

 

 

It is not my intention to offend, but if your conscious is offended I wouldn't blame you. However if you believe the Bible is God's perfect Word as many here claim (2 Timothy 3:16-17) I do, btw than you have to come to grips with the fact that the God of the Bible has demanded (and even directly intervened in accomplishing) genocide (genocide ... it was killing, my remark) and the killing of children and babies more than once or twice. And such stories are major stumbling blocks for keeping people like me from entertaining the thought that such a book is divinely inspired by a superior being that IS "love". 

 

Have a good day,

Thomas

Missing is the account of how the she bears killed the youngsters who were tormenting Elisha without their parents being part of it.  True, these could have been interpreted as young men as well.   I don't know.