Eastern Orthodox

[Thaddaeus]

 

 

 

 

This is interesting thread.

 

What is your take on the old filioque-debate?

 

And another, the mother Mary as ascended?

 

I enjoy many features of the orthodox tradition, by the way, but would be nice to improve my understanding of some aspects.

It is still one of the issues separating the Orthodox from RCC.  The language as it exists in the filioque changes the meaning of the Trinity.

Whether she is or is not is not a saving doctrine. It is a pietistic concept and many do believe that her body was taken up after she died.

 

If you have some specific questions, just let me know.

 

 

I have serious issues with the intercession of Saints. This sounds to me very much like contacting the dead.

 

It is all about perspective.  God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matt 22:32.  The saints reigning with Christ are alive.To use a saint who has died to intercede to Christ for you is no different than you asking a friend to pray for you here on earth.  We know the saints are aware of our prayers as this is conveyed in Revelation. It has been a belief from the beginning.  The phrase, "the communion of the Saints" was included in the Apostles Creed and is in the Liturgy as well.

 

We also know from scripture that the souls of the saints are "aware" in heaven. A text as Heb 12:22-24.  When we celebrate the Liturgy, we are being transported to Heaven and we share that Eucharist with those in heaven.  The story of Lazarus and the Rich man with both Paradise and Hades.  The accounts of the Transfiguration shows that life, Moses and Elijah exists in heaven or consciousness. Heb 12:1 refers to them as witnesses. If they were not conscious they could not be witnesses.

 

The other aspect of praying to the saints is also praying for the saints. We have Paul's prayer for Onesiphorus II Tim 1:18.  The Church teaches that prayer for those dead with Christ is helpful because in the Orthodox view, sanctification is an ever ongoing, unending process and continues in heaven. II Cor 3:18. If we are being transformed into the Likeness of Christ, how would any created being ever attain His perfection.

 

There is much more that could be stated, but books have been written on this topic. I hope this helps a little.

 

Sounds to me like someone is messing about with semantics here. Dead means 'dead in the flesh'. Just because these people are technically alive in spirit does not mean that they are not dead in the flesh. God makes it clear that we are not to disturb the dead. Deut 8 (If they were dead in spirit we would not be able to contact them anyway). So when God says do not disturb the dead then he means do not contact those who are dead in the flesh.

Another thing, you say that the souls of the saints are aware in heaven, who are these saints? How do you know that the person you are speaking to us a saint? How do you know that you are not contacting a malevolent spirit?

 

It applies if you are wanting to contant them for information, like trances, or predictions, or whatever else psychics and soothsayers do. This is not about summoning, or evocation. 

 

 But asking them to be intercessors is not  the same in any stretch.

 

Because of their pius and righteous living in this world and because of miracles performed by them when alive or when dead, the Church has declared them as saints.

[Fez]

It applies if you are wanting to contant them for information, like trances, or predictions, or whatever else psychics and soothsayers do. This is not about summoning, or evocation. 

 

 But asking them to be intercessors is not  the same in any stretch.

 

Because of their pius and righteous living in this world and because of miracles performed by them when alive or when dead, the Church has declared them as saints.

But why when you live under an open heaven, and you have direct access to God, would you want to use a third party? Does it super size your prayer?

 

Before the curtain was torn, and the altar broken, priests entering the the holy wore a bell around their ankle and a rope tied to their foot so that if they were struck dead (and the bell stopped ringing), they could be pulled out. Why do you think we still need people on the other side of the the rope?

 

Jesus cut that rope for us, and God opened heaven.

[BlessedByTheBest]

 

Sounds to me like someone is messing about with semantics here. Dead means 'dead in the flesh'. Just because these people are technically alive in spirit does not mean that they are not dead in the flesh. God makes it clear that we are not to disturb the dead. Deut 8 (If they were dead in spirit we would not be able to contact them anyway). So when God says do not disturb the dead then he means do not contact those who are dead in the flesh.

 

 

Another thing, you say that the souls of the saints are aware in heaven, who are these saints? How do you know that the person you are speaking to us a saint? How do you know that you are not contacting a malevolent spirit?

 

It applies if you are wanting to contact them for information, like trances, or predictions, or whatever else psychics and soothsayers do. This is not about summoning, or evocation. 

 

 

oh, so just divination then? 

[Thaddaeus]

 

It applies if you are wanting to contant them for information, like trances, or predictions, or whatever else psychics and soothsayers do. This is not about summoning, or evocation. 

 

 But asking them to be intercessors is not  the same in any stretch.

 

Because of their pius and righteous living in this world and because of miracles performed by them when alive or when dead, the Church has declared them as saints.

But why when you live under an open heaven, and you have direct access to God, would you want to use a third party? Does it super size your prayer?

 

Before the curtain was torn, and the altar broken, priests entering the the holy wore a bell around their ankle and a rope tied to their foot so that if they were struck dead (and the bell stopped ringing), they could be pulled out. Why do you think we still need people on the other side of the the rope?

 

Jesus cut that rope for us, and God opened heaven.

 

Obviously you have never asked anyone to pray for  you, or have not prayed for someone else which is a pity.

 

You seem to be still in the OT, isn't any wonder you are having difficulty understanding.

[Diatheosis]

as brothers and sisters in Christ we don't want to go down that path of letting disrespect enter this discussion, do we? That's not why He died for us. And it should be more about Him that us, and when it's about Him it's about agape love and forgiveness. He is stern also, but please, let us try not to go to that way of communication which drags down the spirit instead of lifting it up.

 

I am sure there are more ways of asking about things we do not agree about, and of explaining too.

 

Whilst myself I find Orthodox of the east interesting, I cannot help thinking the status of the saints (who themselves no doubt led life we all should and at best can inspire us) still block many people's understanding of God because of the place they occupy in their hearts. Although there's a great depth of mysticism involved too there, by which I mean very vivid experience based faith in God, do most of the people get to taste God really speaking to them and taking that into action? With the older main traditions the problem is they keep strong focus on maintaining the cultural aspect, like in my country with Lutheran church. Even though God is much referred to, is He really understood on a personal level of faith?

 

Yet, every time faith is expressed between several people it becomes cultural too. Most of the time that will create features that not all the time reflect God's perfection, simply because we are not perfect. The more we are to discern what He really asks of us, will decrease the focus on things which matter not so much to Him. Probably still the only person who ever has been able to totally stay free of any human bias, was Jesus Himself. That fact should often bring some perspective on how we measure things.

[Fez]

It applies if you are wanting to contant them for information, like trances, or predictions, or whatever else psychics and soothsayers do. This is not about summoning, or evocation. 

 

 But asking them to be intercessors is not  the same in any stretch.

 

Because of their pius and righteous living in this world and because of miracles performed by them when alive or when dead, the Church has declared them as saints.

But why when you live under an open heaven, and you have direct access to God, would you want to use a third party? Does it super size your prayer?

 

Before the curtain was torn, and the altar broken, priests entering the the holy wore a bell around their ankle and a rope tied to their foot so that if they were struck dead (and the bell stopped ringing), they could be pulled out. Why do you think we still need people on the other side of the the rope?

 

Jesus cut that rope for us, and God opened heaven.

Obviously you have never asked anyone to pray for  you, or have not prayed for someone else which is a pity.

 

You seem to be still in the OT, isn't any wonder you are having difficulty understanding.

Bless you but no. Tel me in any way shape or form my post you quoted above about an open heaven relates to the OT?

I have a good friend who is Russian, and an orthodox priest, I have spent many an hour on a small boat in the middle of the night fishing and talking, and using a little vodka to keep warm, so I have an idea of Orthodoxy. He calls me a NT heretic and I tell him praying through St Peter won't catch him any more fish....

That we both love Jesus and just approach it from different angles doesn't degenerate into us insulting each other about praying. We both pray to the same God, he just takes the longer route, through some other dude first. Which I think is not entrenched in scripture nor is it necessary.

By the way I host a prayer group at my home once a week, among other things, and we pray like Nehemiah prayed. With intensity, and directly to God. He has answered in so many ways, and not a "saint" in sight! So your comment is judgmental, uninformed and lacks grace. It is also a personal attack which is kind of against the ToS. So please desist.

[OakWood]

Another thing about praying to saints:

 

Only God is omnipotent. If, for example, 1000 people are praying to Mary at the same time, she can only listen to one at a time!

[Thaddaeus]

 

 

 

It applies if you are wanting to contant them for information, like trances, or predictions, or whatever else psychics and soothsayers do. This is not about summoning, or evocation. 

 

 But asking them to be intercessors is not  the same in any stretch.

 

Because of their pius and righteous living in this world and because of miracles performed by them when alive or when dead, the Church has declared them as saints.

But why when you live under an open heaven, and you have direct access to God, would you want to use a third party? Does it super size your prayer?

 

Before the curtain was torn, and the altar broken, priests entering the the holy wore a bell around their ankle and a rope tied to their foot so that if they were struck dead (and the bell stopped ringing), they could be pulled out. Why do you think we still need people on the other side of the the rope?

 

Jesus cut that rope for us, and God opened heaven.

Obviously you have never asked anyone to pray for  you, or have not prayed for someone else which is a pity.

 

You seem to be still in the OT, isn't any wonder you are having difficulty understanding.

Bless you but no. Tel me in any way shape or form my post you quoted above about an open heaven relates to the OT?

I have a good friend who is Russian, and an orthodox priest, I have spent many an hour on a small boat in the middle of the night fishing and talking, and using a little vodka to keep warm, so I have an idea of Orthodoxy. He calls me a NT heretic and I tell him praying through St Peter won't catch him any more fish....

That we both love Jesus and just approach it from different angles doesn't degenerate into us insulting each other about praying. We both pray to the same God, he just takes the longer route, through some other dude first. Which I think is not entrenched in scripture nor is it necessary.

By the way I host a prayer group at my home once a week, among other things, and we pray like Nehemiah prayed. With intensity, and directly to God. He has answered in so many ways, and not a "saint" in sight! So your comment is judgmental, uninformed and lacks grace. It is also a personal attack which is kind of against the ToS. So please desist.

 

Pot calling the kettle here. Your comment was sarcastic and judgemental which is why I gave the same response. 

 

Orthodox do not JUST pray to saints.  Not any more so than you would ask any other person to pray for you or a family member which apparently you do not do, as I had mentioned this in my previoius post. 

Now, in knowing you have a friend who is Orhodox it makes it even more judgemental. You should have known better.

[GoldenEagle]

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[Botz]

 

 

Before the curtain was torn, and the altar broken, priests entering the the holy wore a bell around their ankle and a rope tied to their foot so that if they were struck dead (and the bell stopped ringing), they could be pulled out. Why do you think we still need people on the other side of the the rope?

 

 

As far as I am aware the idea of the rope around the leg of the High Priest is a combination of Judeo-Christian urban myth, and some medieval references from the Zohar.

Sources vary in their claims that it was a scarlet rope or a golden one.   I am unaware of any bell being attached to their ankles, although they did wear a garment with

pomegranates and bells on the lower edges...BUT not on the day of atonement...then it was a simple lined ephod or some such.

 

There are a couple of other things to bear in mind that I have read about before:

 

1. They couldn't possibly pull the dead body through the curtain as it wasn't what we think of as a bit of moveable material, but was rather a combination of thick layers

that some reckon to have been 3 feet thick and set in such a way as to overlap and form a sort of zig-zag for the Priest to walk through and get to the Holy of Holies.

 

2. I believe the introduction of a piece of rope was not ever prescribed anywhere, and would be introducing something 'foreign' to the whole set up...which had to be done

with a severe degree of exactitude.

 

There is no record of any High Priest ever falling dead in the Holy of Holies because of his sins....no doubt some of the High Priests were not that righteous, but it shows

that despite their sinfulness, their cleansing before entering relied upon the mercy and promise of G-d Himself, and was 100% effective.

 

(Edersheim's book 'The Temple' written in the late 1800's, still ranks as one of the best accounts on this subject.)