Can you have faith without works?

[apothanein kerdos]

Hebrews 11 gives the definition of faith and then gives examples.

Here is what it says about Abraham:

Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Surely you can see that faith is much more than belief. Abraham's faith was his obedience. They are one and the same.

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No, they aren't the same thing...and I believe my postings on this that you have ignored prove this. Hebrews 11:8 is once again proving what James has already said in chapter two, that works are the result of faith. Works are not faith, they merely prove that we have faith.

[Khristeeanos]

No, they aren't the same thing...and I believe my postings on this that you have ignored prove this. Hebrews 11:8 is once again proving what James has already said in chapter two, that works are the result of faith. Works are not faith, they merely prove that we have faith.

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Meaning you can't have one without the other, thus they are the same.

[apothanein kerdos]

No, they aren't the same thing...and I believe my postings on this that you have ignored prove this. Hebrews 11:8 is once again proving what James has already said in chapter two, that works are the result of faith. Works are not faith, they merely prove that we have faith.

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Meaning you can't have one without the other, thus they are the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice try but no cigar. If you revert back to one of my previous posts I showed that the "righteousness" that James is refering to is that of men. In other words, it is possible to have faith without works, however the natural occurance of faith is to cause works. To say, "Oh, this makes them the same" is faulty reasoning. If I shoot a gun the result is a sound. Does this mean that the sound and the gun are the same thing? Of course not. The sound is a result of the gun. Works occur as a result of faith that is already there. Thus they are not the same.

Furthermore, it would help tremendously if you'd respond and take into consideration my previous posts.

[Khristeeanos]

Nice try but no cigar. If you revert back to one of my previous posts I showed that the "righteousness" that James is refering to is that of men.

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Then why did James ask the question "can such faith save?"

[apothanein kerdos]

Nice try but no cigar. If you revert back to one of my previous posts I showed that the "righteousness" that James is refering to is that of men.

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Then why did James ask the question "can such faith save?"

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Well now, if you read my posts you'd find your answer.

[Khristeeanos]

Nice try but no cigar. If you revert back to one of my previous posts I showed that the "righteousness" that James is refering to is that of men.

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Then why did James ask the question "can such faith save?"

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Well now, if you read my posts you'd find your answer.

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In my reading of some of your posts, they can be difficult to follow. I don't mean that disrespectfully. Just my opinion.

[Repent1]

Hebrews 11 gives the definition of faith and then gives examples.

Here is what it says about Abraham:

Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Surely you can see that faith is much more than belief. Abraham's faith was his obedience. They are one and the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Dime,

God's blessings

May I humbly offer for your consideration, this verse from another view point?

[Hebrews 11:8]

By (according to) faith (trust/confidence in the testimony of God) Abraham, when he was called (summoned) to go out into a place which he should after receive (accept) for an inheritance, obeyed (complied); and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

[My testimony]

Because Abraham trusted God he obeyed (complied), his obedience was the by-product of his confidence (Faith) in the testimony of God.

[Heb 11:17]

By (according to) faith (trust/confidence in the testimony of God) Abraham, when he was tried (tested), offered up Isaac: and he that had received (accepted) the promises offered up his only begotten son.

[Hebrews 11:32-40]

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith (trust/confidence in the testimony of God) subdued kingdoms, wrought (worked) righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received (accepted) their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting (receiving) deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted (provoked), were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith (confidence in the testimony of God), received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without (On the outside of) us should not be made perfect.

[My testimony]

In the Old Testament, God placed his testimony upon tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

[Exodus 31:18]

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

[My testimony]

In the reveling of the mystery in the New Testament, we now know that the testimony of God is Christ Jesus

[Anne]

Dear Brethern

I seem to have confused some, not my intention, but I noticed SuperJew had written something interesting, (yes Super i read all of your post, before you ask).

I'll try to put this across right,..........from my interpretation of what i've read in James thus far, you cannot separate true faith (love) in Christ Jesus from works, they come in the same package, so to speak.

When a sinner receives Salvation, it is the love, trust and faith that a Christian has for Christ Jesus that ignites a passion in their heart to do his will, this is their obedience to him, this is their works.

The following quotes are what Super Jew thought I was saying:-

Super Jew said "I thought you were saying that works produced faith."

Well, I can see why you might view what I said that way. But i think your viewing it the wrong way, there is no dividing wall between faith and works. First true faith then the desire to do God's Will.

Super Jew said " Or that in order to have faith you must have works."

No amount of working for Christ Jesus will save a sinner, repentance comes first.

Super Jew said "if you are advocating that works is separate from faith."

I am not, no, works is part of faith, works is the fruit of faith.

Super Jew said "are an overflow of faith."

I'm assuming that he meant works are an overflow of faith.

That's it, that is exactly it, works are an overflow of faith! Gee, I should have just said that.

Do you see what I mean SuperJew? Someone who loves Christ Jesus, who has received the gift he gave all nations at Calvary, there is some form of works which follows, maybe it is not always a conscious action, and it may not always been something huge in a human perspective, but nonetheless the action is carried out because of the christians faith and love for Christ Jesus.

To me you cannot separate the two, Works is an overflow of faith, works is the fruit of faith, they are inseperable.

And as to whether I believe James was speaking to the converted, unconverted or possibly a mixture, well, that's a whole new topic. And I ain't going there........yet!

Put your faith in Christ Jesus and do his bidding.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus

Anne

[apothanein kerdos]

You have to be careful in saying that works and faith are the same thing. There will be times within our lives where we are not doing the works of God but will still have faith in God. Thus, if they were the same thing, anytime we were not doing the work of God (sinning) we'd have no faith and thus be without salvtion. So works are not the same as faith but are an overflow of our belief in Christ. Faith, used in the passage in James, it talking about just an intellectual assesment of Christ. In other words, acknowledging that there is a Christ but not taking it to heart. You are correct that faith will bring about works, but again, this does not make them the same thing.

[tsth]

Works are the outward result, of believing in faith, what we hear God speak.

In His Love,

Suzanne