Questions about Acts 3?

[Fez]

"What do you think the time of restoration of all things is?"

 

I think we will know the time, simply by the fact that restoration means a right sizing to what was before. Now that could be an amazing gentle process, but when I do wetland restoration it is messy and often involves noisy machines, etc.

 

I think we will know, and I don't think it has even begun. 

 

I think it's going to be rough, and cosmic in it's depth. We will know, those to come will know.

[1x1is1]

I do not think I have ever seen this  discussed.

 

19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until %5Bthe%5D period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

(hyperlinks are to the underlying Greek)

 

 

Now, I see no need to discuss the merits and demerits of the various rapture positions in this thread, that has been done over and over in other threads, But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration. 

What does this mean? The language is a bit clunky for 21st century English, To me, if heaven must receive him until, that means He remains there until.

 

 

If that contradicts your particular pet end times theory, then you will probably disagree already, but I think that if one is not swayed by what one presumes, one would agree that this is the natural understanding of these words. Assuming I am correct for a moment, we then see that there is an event that cancels the requirement of Jesus remaining in Heaven. This is referred to in the verse as "the period of restoration of all things. Now, would we presume that the perod of restoration is the tribulation, or any time prior to it? I think not. Therefore, this verse seems to rule out Jesus leaving heaven anytime until some other event after the tribulation. My bet is that the time of restoration, is the Millenial Kingdom, or perhaps the war where Jesus defeats Satan so that the Millenium may begin.

 

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

Omega......a legitimate question alright.  And I did read it through.  My consideration to it would be in conjunction with yours.  Jesus's physical return does not allow for any other time period than the restoration.  And I do hold true to Other Ones statement.  By taking your question as a whole, you did open the door for individual responses to "pet end times theorys". 

My agreement with Parker's isnertion about the clouds remains steadfast.  However, Other Ones' idea that it is important to some folks is true also.  As for me, I am a pre-tribber as for as labels go.  I do not push it tho.  I usually just mention that it is of no consiquence whether or not a Christian subscribes to the pre-trib or not, they too will be raptured.  I then include......I will explain it to you on the way up!

 

And we should take up Fez'z remedy......breathe deep

[Guest]

1x1is1,

Of course I realize that the verse and the nature of the question concerns end times questions, no way around that. What I was attempting and hoping to do, is avoid focusing on the rapture debate, because I knew (or assumed with great confidence), that no one would be adding anything to that part of the discussion, that I have not already read on this forum, a dozen times already, so I see no profit in rehashing the same old stuff, and to a large degree, by the same people. It just mostly wastes everyone's time in my opinion.

In this verse and with this question, we are presented with perhaps another clue, and this one is a new one or a rarely considered one (I have not seen it discussed anyway) which I ran across about a year ago, but let sit on my back burner until now. Without rehashing old arguments, the answer to my question could change the game, if we could identify with certainty, exactly what is meant by the restoration of all things. I realize however, that even if we could do that, some people would still never change their views, they are dedicated to them in spite of lots of evidence and some will remain dedicated to them in the face of certain proof, I feel certain.

Thanks for your input.

[Guest]

Of course I realize that the verse and the nature of the question concerns end times questions, no way around that. What I was attempting and hoping to do, is avoid focusing on the rapture debate, because I knew (or assumed with great confidence), that no one would be adding anything to that part of the discussion, that I have not already read on this forum, a dozen times already, so I see no profit in rehashing the same old stuff, and to a large degree, by the same people. It just mostly wastes everyone's time in my opinion.

In this verse and with this question, we are presented with perhaps another clue, and this one is a new one or a rarely considered one (I have not seen it discussed anyway) which I ran across about a year ago, but let sit on my back burner until now. Without rehashing old arguments, the answer to my question could change the game, if we could identify with certainty, exactly what is meant by the restoration of all things. I realize however, that even if we could do that, some people would still never change their views, they are dedicated to them in spite of lots of evidence and some will remain dedicated to them in the face of certain proof, I feel certain.

 

Since Joining Worthy I've Changed My Viewpoint On The Rapture

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Revelation 20:4-7

 

And Yet Anyone Who Believes In The Bodily Resurrection

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

 

Is Indeed A Brother

 

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:22-24

 

As I See It

 

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:26-29

 

~

 

Down, Down, Down

 

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

 

Comes My Burning Ring

 

For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29

 

Of Fire

 

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17

 

The Living God

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

Who's Name Is Salvation

[Guest]

Yeah Joe,

 

People can change. I was once a pre-trib beleiver myself, but I admit that I was not presuaded by others to my current position, so I do not expect others to be persuaded by me.

 

In my case, I spent 8 months reading the bible end to end, jotting notes on scraps of paper of every verse I could find that seemed applicable to end times sequences. I laid this scraps out in chronological order as best I could. Many I could not figure out where they belonged in the sequence. I never could get a pre-trib scenario to work without contradictions, unless I applied odd interpretations or assumptions to the text, and I am just not wired to do that.

 

Taking things at literal or face value when possible, and most likely understandings (my best guesses) when not, I could only conclude in good conscience, that a post trib rapture was the best understanding of scripture. Up until a few years ago, I was at 90% confidence that the posties had the accurate sequence. That grew to 95% and now I think I am at about 99%.

 

The last year or two, I have actually been trying to prove myself wrong, but I am failing at that. I know I do not know it all, and in spite of my confidence in my belief, I remain open to be convinced that I am wrong. I am just awaiting some good evidence that I am to appear. The final proof will be when it all pans out (for you pan-tribbers out there).

 

Still looking for ideas about the period of restoration off all things.

[Fez]

Still looking for ideas about the period of restoration off all things.

What do you think the restoration of all things will be?

Before the fall?

[Hindsfeet]

 

Still looking for ideas about the period of restoration off all things.

Act 3:19     

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Presence -

Strongs 4383

    the face

        the front of the human head

        countenance, look

            the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and (by it various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings

        the appearance one presents by his wealth or property, his rank or low condition

            outward circumstances, external condition

            used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one's judgment and treatment of men

    the outward appearance of inanimate things

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

- maybe Sixth Seal? Doesnt make a whole lot of sense, with the following wrath and all, I'm just fishing for clues.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Hindsfeet

[Guest ninhao]

 

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

 

Psa 110:1-7  Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."  (2)  The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!"  (3)  Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning's womb.  (4)  The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."  (5)  The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.  (6)  He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.  (7)  He will drink from a brook along the way, and so he will lift his head high.

 

 

David mentioned this time of restoration which is at/after the battle of Armegeddon. ( At the tribulations end and as Hindsfeet has stated elsewhere the 6th bowl? )

 

 

Rev 16:15-16  "Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."  (16)  Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

 

It's interesting to note that Paul said this day will not surprise believers ( did he mean believers will not see this day or that they will see it and not be surprised ? )

 

 

1Th 5:1-4  Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,  (2)  for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  (3)  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.  (4)  But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

 

( apologies Omegaman this is also a rapture timing conjecture : D )

 

[Guest]

 

 

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

 

Psa 110:1-7  Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."  (2)  The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!"  (3)  Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning's womb.  (4)  The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."  (5)  The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.  (6)  He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.  (7)  He will drink from a brook along the way, and so he will lift his head high.

 

 

David mentioned this time of restoration which is at/after the battle of Armegeddon. ( At the tribulations end and as Hindsfeet has stated elsewhere the 6th bowl? )

 

 

Rev 16:15-16  "Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."  (16)  Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

 

It's interesting to note that Paul said this day will not surprise believers ( did he mean believers will not see this day or that they will see it and not be surprised ? )

 

 

1Th 5:1-4  Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,  (2)  for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  (3)  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.  (4)  But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

 

( apologies Omegaman this is also a rapture timing conjecture : D )

 

 

I don't think the timing conjecture is avoidable, no worries.

 

If what you identify as the possible time of restoration is indeed at or after Armageddon, then the verses I quote would seem to say that Jesus must remain in heaven until then or the end of the trib. That would rule out a pre-trib rapture, since He could leave Heaven until after the tribulation.

 

 

 

It's interesting to note that Paul said this day will not surprise believers ( did he mean believers will not see this day or that they will see it and not be surprised ? )

 

I always took that to mean that since beleivers are watching for the signs of His return, that they would not be caught off-guard as those who sleep, since we are of the day, not of the night as they are. However, I reserve the right to be wrong. There is room for either understanding in this passage I think.

[Guest]

 

Still looking for ideas about the period of restoration off all things.

What do you think the restoration of all things will be?

Before the fall?

 

If the restoration of all things is to a state like before the fall, that would have to be the Millenium or later I would think. If that is the case, then Jesus would not be leaving Heaven until at least after Armageddon, but we know from Matt 24 and elsewhere, that He leaves Heaven immediately after the tribulation. So while a pristine state such as before the fall would seem a perfect match to the idea of the restoration of all things, I don't think that understanding is possible, considering His parousia (coming to be present) in Matt 24. Thanks for the suggestion, do you disagree with my assumptions in this post?