Can every Believer be rich/blessed/favored/speak-in-tongues/be healed?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

It would seem also the issue of whether or not a Believer is righteous NOW is also something that has to be understood (hint: if you are in Christ, you are righteous now).

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

 

Has anybody besides Mr. and Mrs. Rodain prayed for my hurting hands? Just curious...Because the second I read their prayer to me...I felt The Power of God...and believed The Goodness that was in it...Nothing but Love and Healing...Whew...Walking around with new hands-that don't hurt...Oh my...I humbly thank you for taking the time to pray for me, Mr. and Mrs. Rodain...God is Faithful...

 

Glory to God! His Word ALWAYS work when it is allowed to combine with our faith! And the product of faith is JOY! Because you know you got it (Mark 11:24). Praise God for her healing!  (it will be interesting to see how many posts there are about this).

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

 

 

Not all of us have been born again, baptized by water, baptized in The Spirit, Walking as He Walked...Walking in all that The Bible says we can...I keep saying The Word is Alive!!! Jesus is Alive...

 

 

I read something up above...Sometimes I just can't read all of the: I'm right and your're not-stuff!!! Of course non-believers are trying to meet their every need without God...When I was without God---I had a good paying job!!! I was doing just fine making lots of money compared to some...but it didn't last...I was "in the world"...I believe that I am living in The Kingdom right now...because mainly...Multiplication is happening!!! Whew...and there are things coming into my life that I didn't work for!!! Just coming in...Lately, all I've had to do is ask and here it comes...Amazing...

 

 

 

Hi NeedYOu

 

Are you familar with WOF teaching?  I believe all that Scripture states and I know other repsonders in this thread do also.

 

What we do not believe, is the erroneous teaching of the WOF doctrines that declare such things as Jesus was not fully God when he walked the earth or that we are little gods

or that God does as we tell Him to because He has to.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you posted, but I can assure you, my own posts do not reflect a lack of belief in what scripture states.

 

Do you see exposing erroneous teaching as right and wrong 'stuff'?   It is important to know what the Bible actually states, don't you think?  

 

I've deleted some of my posts because I personally know the pain the world of WOF can inflict on people and some of my posts were not impersonal.

 

If you do not know what Word of Faith is, may I suggest you learn about it before you interpret my own and other posters concern for these things as simply a desire to be

right?  I desire to not be deceived again.  I also desire that others are not deceived.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Just getting to the root of the problem: 7seas, your faith isn't broken, or 2nd rate, it is actually Jesus' own faith (1 John 5:1,4-5). It works. If you don't understand why on something, ask God, He will show you. Don't go into a numbed state of disbelief; you'll suffer like that. God doesn't want that - the Truth is still there and it is for YOU. I don't know your past, but you can be victorious too. Be blessed 7seas. I will pray for you.

[Guest ninhao]

 

TheCurseOfTheRodain, on 07 Dec 2013 - 2:17 PM, said:

 

If Truth was measured by how many people agree with it boy would we be in trouble as the Church. How many doctrines out there deliberately put God in a box and deny His promises? I am not interested in whether any of you or anyone period agrees with what I say - I point out the Truth of the Scriptures, that's all. I don't put forth my opinions, I am just saying what is written.

 

 

My mention of how many agree with your presentations was simply in reply to your self- assessment of people benefitting from them. In short I submit no one is benefitting from your presentations. I agree that majority doesn’t imply truth but there is something that does; correct interpretation which you have been provided and rejected.

 

 

Paul said the Lord delivered him OUT of them all, not through. Meaning, they did not overcome him.

 

 

I have asked previously Rodain for you to supply scriptures to show where Jesus or any of His disciples lived a lavish lifestyle that you promote. Can you do this?

 

You claim God delivered Paul out of all his persecutions, and Paul still suffered multiple floggings etc, therefor do you agree a faithful Christian may suffer and possibly die at the hands of satan ?  

[Guest ninhao]

It would seem also the issue of whether or not a Believer is righteous NOW is also something that has to be understood (hint: if you are in Christ, you are righteous now).

 

A believers righteousness is imputed because of Jesus propitiatory sacrifice and this guarantees our salvation; but this doesn't imply our every action, or desire, is righteous.

 

Do you think everything we do is righteous ?

[Guest shiloh357]

We are called to be Ambassadors of the Covenant, Ambassadors of The Anointed One; part of representing that Covenant is to walk in ALL the promises, one of which is wealth and riches. That's all I'm saying. Wealth and riches are not the point of the Covenant, they are an effect and privelege of the Covenant

 

Paul claimed to be an ambassador for Christ in II Cor. 5:20.   How come Paul didn't see any of the action when comes to wealth.  I mean, by the standards set by the Word of Faith folks, Paul didn't appear to be a very good ambassador given he didnt live up to the standards of wealth that you claim was his in the covenant.   Yet, you quote Paul in support of a standard of living that Paul, himself, didn't live up to.   Do you not see the internal inconsistency of that?

 

2 Cor 12:7-10 "

⁷ And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

⁸ For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

⁹ And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

¹⁰ Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

 

Right there in verse 7 Paul says lest he should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations he had been receiving from God about the realities of the New Covenant, SATAN gave Paul a thorn in the flesh (like we use the expression "a pain in the neck" when you don't actually have a pain...) COMMA, THE MESSENGER OF SATAN TO BUFFET HIM. The thorn, contrary to nonsense unbelieving opinions, was a MESSENGER OF SATAN, not a sickness, disease, etc.

 

 

 

That is a misreading of the text.  I have found that a literal reading of the text makes more sense of what is being said.

 

II Corinthians is written as a defense of Paul's ministry over and against false apostles who are attempting to discredit Paul's authority as an apostle.   These false teachers flaunted past experiences and credentials that the people only heard about.  You can get a sense of that in various epistles where Paul mentions these false teachers.   In II Corinthians 12, Paul brings up, with reluctance, a vision  of heaven that he had some years prior.  Paul refuses to even idenitify himself as the recipient of that vision.

 

In verse six, Paul says (and his words are dripping with sarcasm at this point), "so that no one will credit to more than what they see in me (as opposed to the false teachers who make boasts they can't prove), and then in verse seven, "on account of the greatness of vision  and so to keep me from exatling myself (in the way his enemies exalted themselves), there was given to me a  thorn in the flesh, a messenger of satan sent to buffet me."

 

There is no reason to understand that to be anything other than what a person could see visibly when they look at Paul.  That is the point Paul is making from verse six.  He is contrasting the claims that the false apostles were making that they had no evidence for, with something Paul could point to in Himself that was physically visible as evidence of his claim to have seen the vision of heaven.   The alleged visions and experiences of the false apostles had made the prideful , but with Paul the vision was humbling and to keep him humble, the clear imlication is that God granted that Paul have a physical disability in connection with the vision.

 

The fact that Paul was stoned and nearly left dead is an indicator as to what this ailment might have been.  The practice of stoning was extremely brutal. They would place a person on the ground and fasten to the ground.  One person would take a stone weighing close to 100 lbs. The stone is used to crush the head and chest of the person being stoned.  These are not smooth stones.  They were sharp and jagged the first stone is meant to kill the victim.  The other stones were used in the event the first stone was unsuccesful in killing the victim.

 

That Paul survived is amazing on its own, but he would have been left with severe physical trauma akin to what a person would have suffered had they survived a violent car accident and experienced head and body trauma after being crushed in car or having their head impacted in the accident.   We have seen what happens to people who manage to live through these things and they ususally have scars and physical handicaps that they bear for the rest of their lives.  Paul was stoned early in his first missionary journey and he is recounting this vision over a decade later in II Corinthians at the ends of his second missionary journey.   So it is likely that Paul had near death experience, saw heaven for the time he was either dead or unconscious and then the Lord allowed him to survive.   The "thorn" would have been the ongoing disabilities and issues that resulted in the severe physical trauma that he suffered as a result of the stone event.

 

The injury or injuries he suffered would have been a lifelong reminder of the vision and they would be humbling because Paul would have needed some assistance perhaps in day to day tasks.  It would explain why Paul had someone else write his letters.    By modern standards Paul would not have been an impressive person to look at.  He would not be someone that, by worldly estimations, is an effective minister.  In fact, there is evidence that the false apsoltes used Paul's misfortunes and the extreme episodes of persecution he endured as evidence that he must not be called as an apostle.  After all, why would you want to follow someone who is scarred, scabbed, deformed, can't talk very well and is always in and out of jail?   That would have likely been the reasoning of those false apostles.

 

Paul's thorn in the flesh, would have been humbling like any disability is.  The sweetest people in the world are often those who have to depend on the Lord and on others. They often have a humble spirit and are the best in the world when the Lord uses them to minister to others who suffer.

 

It is not uncommon that God uses satan and the demonic world to accomplish his purposes:  (Judg. 9:23, I Sam. 16:14-16, 18: 10, 19:9;  I Cor. 5:5; I Tim. 1:20).  The thorn wasn't sent by Satan.  The thorn was a tool used by God in Paul's life.  That is evident in the fact that it was given so that Paul might not become conceited.  Satan would not have any interest in Paul not becoming exalted above measure.  Satan doesn't try to humble us.  He tries to incite pride and haughtiness in us. The thorn was a physical ailment that God used to work humility into Paul.

 

THEN, when Paul goes to the Lord, God says His GRACE (literally "unmerited favor") is SUFFICIENT for him to get rid of it - in other words, what God has supplied by His grace through the cross (all authority in Heaven and Earth is one thing, and we have that as Believers according to Jesus) IS sufficient to get rid of it. God said His strength would take the place of Paul's weakness (Paul as a flesh and blood being cannot overcome a spirit being with the flesh, he had to use the authority of the anointing and Jesus' name). He said he takes pleasures in these problems that come against him (WHY? --->) for CHRIST'S SAKE, because when he is weak, THEN he is STRONG. Meaning the weakness is gone and there is only strength to get rid of the problem, to overcome it.

 

No, the grace being referenced here is the unmeritted favor of the Lord.   That would be saving grace.   The grace mentioned here is the daily grace, the stamina that we need to live for the Lord in every circumstance.  God was not saying my grace is sufficient for you to get rid of it.   He is saying that my grace is sufficient to sustain you in the midst of the suffering you are encountering as  result of this thorn.

 

And you see where he says he was when this happened in Acts (the girl with the demon who followed them around shouting after them), and then you see in 2 Timothy 3: 11 "Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me."

 

Paul said the Lord delivered him OUT of them all, not through. Meaning, they did not overcome him.

 

Yes, they didnt overcome him, but that doesn't mean that he didn't have to endure them.  God preserved Paul in the midst of persecution and Paul with God's power outlived the persecution and in that sense he was delivered out of them.  But it doesn't mean that God supernaturally rescued Paul from his persecutors.  II Corinthians eleven itemizes the list of persecutions that Paul had endured up to that point in time.  God didn't rescue Paul from having to endure persecution, but he delivered him out of intent of his persecutors to take his life, as we see in Lystra.

 

We must never leave to God what He has left up to us. He has given us all authority in Heaven and Earth, that means Satan has NONE; it is up to us to enforce Satan's defeat, using the name of Jesus and His blood (Rev 12:11) and the Word of God.

 

Only Jesus has all authority in Heaven and Earth.  And Jesus has not transferred that to us. 

 

Never anywhere does God say He enforces Satan's defeat, it's up to us to do that.

 

Satan's defeat doesn't need "enforcing."   He is in a defeated state already and that was once for all time.  The Bible does not task us with "enforcing" Satan's defeat.  The victory I walk in was paid for at the cross.  I don't live in defeat or fear, but that is because satan has no power over me.  I don't waste my time "enforcing" satan's defeat.  That is just silly.

 

Some of you will undoubtedly scoff, and by doing so, you will be leaving yourself vulnerable when you could be on the offensive, shutting him down and doing to him just like someone would do in enforcing the law on a thief (the thief will do whatever he pleases until you enforce the law on him)...I know someone is being helped by this.

 

Jesus has already shut satan down. I am appropriating the victory that is already mine.  If I'm busying trying to shut down satan, I am saying that the work Jesus did on the cross isn't sufficient.   Satan was shut down 2,000 years ago and I appropriate that victory every day of my life.   I am resting in what Jesus did, and I am not busy trying to fight a war that has already been won.

[Sevenseas]

So, you might ask, what is wrong with word of faith?  Well, one of their most dangerous doctrines is the doctrine that you can create reality with your words and you can also shape
the reality of others.  

 

You know, the Bible indicates, specifically in the New Testament, that we need discernment and that we should not just entrust ourselves to anyone or allow them to lay hands on us

and pray.  The NT further lays down the qualification for those who are to lead and is also very clear on the gifts of the spirit.  

 

I would encourage anyone who accepts a word spoken or prayed over them, to be very careful and not put that word above what God Himself states in His Word.  No human being

has better knowledge of who YOU are, as an individual, then does God.  Yet, it is common practice in WOF meetings for people to line up for prayer and someone will pray over

them and then supposedly give them a word of knowledge.  Try and find that in scripture.  There is no such practice but there is a word of knowledge.  It is the misapplication of

the gifts and the fundamentaly wrong teaching that takes a gift from God and tries to somehow 'use' it to control lives...whether on purpose or in ignorance does not really matter

as the results are pretty much the same.

 

It is wise counsel to not allow another to tell you what God's will for you is.  How would they know that?  The Bible is 100% clear on the will of God for our lives.  Our PERSONAL

relationship with our Lord fills in the gaps..no human being can really know what God's will is for you when it comes to a personal relationship between you and God.

 

What is the Word-Faith Movement ?

 

The Word-Faith Movement encompasses a number of different philosophical streams, that have coalesced into the false theological perspective that reality can be created not by human action, nor by the intention of our hearts nor by human effort (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit), but rather by the uttering of words from humans.

According to this perspective, humans have the ability to create/re-create matter and direct spiritual energy (& other energy) not by asking God, but rather by speaking words out loud. Speaking words out loud is considered speaking words “into reality”, the premise being that the words magically change the order of the universe and affect the world, or any person or circumstance, in accordance with the will of the one who utters those words. Another way of saying this is that it makes men as Gods.

[Guest shiloh357]

According to this perspective, humans have the ability to create/re-create matter and direct spiritual energy (& other energy) not by asking God, but rather by speaking words out loud. Speaking words out loud is considered speaking words “into reality”, the premise being that the words magically change the order of the universe and affect the world, or any person or circumstance, in accordance with the will of the one who utters those words. Another way of saying this is that it makes men as Gods.

 

Yes, one of Kenneth Copeland's cardinal errors is that we are little gods.  I got an earful of that when I worked in Tulsa.  They teach down there  that God created Adam to be a carbon copy of Himself, albeit in miniature.  Adam was a little version of God, according to the WoF teachings and thus if God can speak things into existence, we should speak them as well because we are little versions of Him, little gods.  So if you need a bigger house, they say you can speak it into existence, same with a new car, or whatever you need.  

 

I think that is probably the most blasphemous and egregious errors that they make.  I would hate to have to stand in front of the Lord and give an account for that kind of horrible, ubiblical teaching.

[Guest ninhao]

 

According to this perspective, humans have the ability to create/re-create matter and direct spiritual energy (& other energy) not by asking God, but rather by speaking words out loud. Speaking words out loud is considered speaking words “into reality”, the premise being that the words magically change the order of the universe and affect the world, or any person or circumstance, in accordance with the will of the one who utters those words. Another way of saying this is that it makes men as Gods.

 

Yes, one of Kenneth Copeland's cardinal errors is that we are little gods.  I got an earful of that when I worked in Tulsa.  They teach down there  that God created Adam to be a carbon copy of Himself, albeit in miniature.  Adam was a little version of God, according to the WoF teachings and thus if God can speak things into existence, we should speak them as well because we are little versions of Him, little gods.  So if you need a bigger house, they say you can speak it into existence, same with a new car, or whatever you need.  

 

I think that is probably the most blasphemous and egregious errors that they make.  I would hate to have to stand in front of the Lord and give an account for that kind of horrible, ubiblical teaching.

 

 

Isn't this also a Mormon teaching ?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

According to this perspective, humans have the ability to create/re-create matter and direct spiritual energy (& other energy) not by asking God, but rather by speaking words out loud. Speaking words out loud is considered speaking words “into reality”, the premise being that the words magically change the order of the universe and affect the world, or any person or circumstance, in accordance with the will of the one who utters those words. Another way of saying this is that it makes men as Gods.

 

Yes, one of Kenneth Copeland's cardinal errors is that we are little gods.  I got an earful of that when I worked in Tulsa.  They teach down there  that God created Adam to be a carbon copy of Himself, albeit in miniature.  Adam was a little version of God, according to the WoF teachings and thus if God can speak things into existence, we should speak them as well because we are little versions of Him, little gods.  So if you need a bigger house, they say you can speak it into existence, same with a new car, or whatever you need.  

 

I think that is probably the most blasphemous and egregious errors that they make.  I would hate to have to stand in front of the Lord and give an account for that kind of horrible, ubiblical teaching.

 

 

Isn't this also a Mormon teaching ?

 

The mormons teach that we will become gods.  They teach that God was once a man who achieved deity.