is natural selection atheistic?

[Guest ninhao]

 

I am still not getting something here, although Shiloh has been drilling on it.  The imperfections are a result of sin.  So the tapeworm was a result of sin, or did it preexist in a benign condition (which I have trouble envisioning)?  Are plate tectonics imperfections since they result in earthquakes and tsunamis?  I can grasp death and some types of illness as the result of the Fall; that is what the Bible leads us to believe.

 

I don't get it either. Some organisms, parasitoids, spend a good chunk of time in a host like regular parasites but end up devouring the host, killing it, as part of their normal life cycle. Ichneumon wasps are the prime example of this. A female will lay eggs on or in a host (e.g. caterpillar), and when the eggs hatch they will burrow into the host and devour it. Starting with fat and the digestive system, keeping the essential organs like the heart and CNS intact until the very end, they keep their host alive and conscious for as long as possible, controlling its metabolism, torturing it, to get as much nutrients from its host as possible so that one day the parasitoid will emerge as an adult. In what world would these types of organisms be benign, let alone 'perfect'?

 

But it gets even worse for our creationist friends. The way the Ichneumon wasps know where to find hosts is through volatile chemicals released by plants whenever they are being attacked/eaten by a potential host like a caterpillar. Then there are some Ichneumon wasps that are not only parasitoids but hyperparasitoids, those that infect other parasitoids with their own brood. Sometimes when a parasitoid lays its eggs inside a host the chemical reactions taking place will change the chemical composition of the host's saliva, and the saliva will interact with the plant's own chemicals; those volatile chemicals that the plant uses to send out essentially distress signals now have a different chemical signature. The new chemical signature is picked up by hyperparasitoids, and they use it to find their own hosts, the other parasitoids. 

 

This intricate system between plants, the herbivores, and the various predators is not something I see coming out of 'the fall' from a previously beneficial symbiosis between the species. 

 

 

I'm not sure why it's not acceptable that the Ichneumon wasp progressed to this style of parasitic and investigative identification after the fall.  Can you explain why this isn't reasonable ?  After all the symbiotic relationship either existed from the beginning or developed for a reason. There is another line of reasoning that the consequences of the fall resulted in the Creation becoming hostile to humans and non-human death already occurred.

 

Gray wolf in regard to plate tectonics I suggest this is an inevitable consequence of the structure and composition of the Earth but the effects may be alleviated by God with some simple physical dynamics. Perhaps the pressure points simply need release or lubricant.  

[Guest]

This intricate system between plants, the herbivores, and the various predators is not something I see coming out of 'the fall' from a previously beneficial symbiosis between the species. 

 

 

Beloved

 

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Genesis 1:30

 

It Came Out Of The Flood

 

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Genesis 9:3-4

 

And For The Beasts, It Will End With The Return Of Jesus

 

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isaiah 65:25

 

I Do Wonder Why Sharp Fellows Like Yourself

 

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

Are So Early Hooked On Nonsense

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

 

And Spit Out The

 

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isaiah 45:9

 

Truth

 

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

 

Praying~!

 

~

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

[LuftWaffle]

Hi D-9

 

Sorry to hijack this discussion but something has me puzzled regarding the two quotes in your signature.

According to Bertold Brecht science is noble because it prevents infinite error. At least it's implied and I'm sure you agree.

According to Degrasse Tyson we are stardust.

 

Why is it that stardust must avoid infinite error?

 

I have a glass of orange juice sitting on my desk right now, which is also stardust. Should it also avoid error? Is it even capable of error? 

 

Hijack off.

[Guest]

     

[enoob57]

 

That is what Shiloh is saying the very begin of thought to natural selection is in that thought error... and try as everyone may

wrong will never be made right no matter how many twist and turns with imagined acceptability's you place with it!

Please refer to peppered moth illustration in Are they all going to hell? discussion. We had a pretty lively exchange as to whether or not that is natural selection.  As for God's active role in the physical universe, just what is He doing?  I do not ask this to be irreverent, I am just wondering what He does for example with a sunrise or plant germinating?  

 

There is a Muslim cleric (forgot his name) who holds that God manages everything down to the molecule.  Nothing happens without God causing it.  I do not think that is what is being advanced here?

 

Facts are for referencing to the absolute truth of The Who of God...

1. He 'IS' as no other The Only One of His Kind.  Deut 4:39

2. satan is of the highest created beings (Cherub). Ez 28:13-16 Heb 9:5

3. We are in witness of the war that satan wages against God. 2 Cor 11:14, 2 Thes 2:9, Rev 16:14

4. Man is born into sin of sin and will sin. Ps 51:5, Rom 3:23

5. All that perish looked to this world and in themselves for a god to fill that absence that all sense in themselves. Gen-Rev

Once this pathway is accepted it leads to absolute truth that His Word 'IS' all that is trust worthy and  then is set as

The Guard of our hearts door. Faith is then established by His Word alone and we are born unto a living hope that is

formed by that Word and all that we have and are here is sorted out by that Word ... the point being when we walk into

any room at night what is the first thing we do? It is this way as to this present world 1Cor 13:12 and the light switch is

His Word The Bible both written Ps 119:105 and Living. Jn 1:1-14

 

The minute we limit or bind by bounds "God" we have effectively made an idol for ourselves that is not The God of The Bible!

So that it is understood that limits are not of God and the Who of Him when that sun rises it is infinitesimal to the witness of His

wonder and glory (old hat to the sinner) but to the child a uniqueness of new mercies and a sight designed to that particular moment

with all the enumerable things witnessed within that moment for each one who is able to receive such by The Spirit of God within them!

Imagine the witness of each, that is born of God, around the world for the experience of one particular sun rise in the one day- all the

elements of variance, local and all sensual data of each individual put together in one composite witness and then to know that tomorrows

will be a uniqueness of it's own just like today! We all will come before God Who is able to do this and give an account of this wonder

He performed and what our heart was according to it .... this is walking in the Light as He 'IS' in that Light and there is nothing else

to worship but Him Who has performed such in daily witness of Himself! I am of the opinion the each individual also in themselves is

uniqueness that their take and perception of things is as unique as the fingerprint to their individualities... when this time of reckoning

comes to us unto our Creator we will be enlarged to hold in unity of thoughts, the total Godly experienced, of those born of His Spirit

which is eternal life and then the wonder of knowing Him just as we are known... unfathomable realties ahead all formed in worship

of God Who Alone has done such...   Love, Steven

[gray wolf]

….

Edited November 27, 2013 by gray wolf

[alphaparticle]

I do not doubt the experience of a believer to the awesomeness of God, but I was curious as to His role in the daily universe.  Is He actively maintaining it, arranging events?  I can view a sunrise as a testament to the wonder of creation, but what is going on behind the scenes?  Is this a sacrilegious question?

No, my assumption is, and it's just that, an assumption, that God created rules by which physical stuff operates, and lets it operate. That's what we seem to observe happening anyway.

[gray wolf]

Hi D-9

Sorry to hijack this discussion but something has me puzzled regarding the two quotes in your signature.

According to Bertold Brecht science is noble because it prevents infinite error. At least it's implied and I'm sure you agree.

According to Degrasse Tyson we are stardust.

Why is it that stardust must avoid infinite error?

I have a glass of orange juice sitting on my desk right now, which is also stardust. Should it also avoid error? Is it even capable of error?

Hijack off.

I think it fitting to drink the juice!

[LuftWaffle]

 

Hi D-9

Sorry to hijack this discussion but something has me puzzled regarding the two quotes in your signature.

According to Bertold Brecht science is noble because it prevents infinite error. At least it's implied and I'm sure you agree.

According to Degrasse Tyson we are stardust.

Why is it that stardust must avoid infinite error?

I have a glass of orange juice sitting on my desk right now, which is also stardust. Should it also avoid error? Is it even capable of error?

Hijack off.

I think it fitting to drink the juice!

 

 

I did. It was mmm mmm gooood!

The juice and I are now joined even more closely than before.

[Guest shiloh357]

One must differentiate between total acceptance of evolution to explain everything that has developed, including humans and the acceptance of evolutionary mechanisms to explain things we see in nature, including fossils. One can believe some principles, yet acknowledge that humans are special creation. Acceptance of natural selection does not require one to reject the workings of God. The role of God sheds light on the mystery of the origin of the basic elements if life.

Really, and where do you find the license to do that?  Where do you find the authority to cut and paste the parts of Evolution you accept from the parts you don't?  

 

I mean, either you accept the theory, or you don't.  Either you believe God, or you don't.   I don't see where the option has been given to treat the Bible or Evolution like they are smorgasboards from which you can pick and choose according to your taste.

 

Human beings are special in that they were created apart from the rest of the created order, thus defying the need for any evolutionary mechanisms to explain where man came from.  

 

Furthermore, the Bible presents creation initially being perfect and functionally mature.  The clear wording of Genesis one precludes God using evolutionary mechanisms.   Even mainstream evolutionists have the ability to see that.